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Commercial use issues

Yep Captainbadge is the undercover troll that has nothing else to do then troll. Find something constructive to say instead of instigating a situation captin we are all pilots here....
Good Lord. Sorry I don't spend my Sundays waiting for you to rock up chief. So I snatched a bit of reading for you guys. Highlighted key bits for you. Enjoy.

SECTION 1.

Basic Legal Mandates

The FAA’s safety mandate under 49 U.S.C. § 40103 requires it to regulate aircraft operations conducted in the NAS,3 which include UAS operations, to protect persons and property on the ground.

A UAS is an Aircraft that Must Comply with Safety Requirements

A UAS is an “aircraft” as defined in the FAA’s authorizing statutes and is therefore subject to regulation by the FAA. 49 U.S.C. § 40102(a)(6) defines an “aircraft” as “any contrivance invented, used, or designed to navigate or fly in the air.” The FAA’s regulations (14 C.F.R. § 1.1) similarly define an “aircraft” as “a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.” Because an unmanned aircraft is a contrivance/device that is invented, used, and designed to fly in the air, it meets the definition of “aircraft.” The FAA has promulgated regulations that apply to the operation of all aircraft, whether manned or unmanned, and irrespective of the altitude at which the aircraft is operating. For example, 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 prohibits any person from operating an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

Model Aircraft Operations

An important distinction to be aware of is whether the UAS is being operated for hobby or recreational purposes or for some other purpose. This distinction is important because there are specific requirements in the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, Public Law 112-95, (the Act) that pertain to “Model Aircraft” operations, which are conducted solely for hobby or recreational purposes. While flying model aircraft for hobby or recreational purposes does not require FAA approval, all model aircraft operators must operate safely and in accordance with the law. The FAA provides guidance and information to individual UAS operators about how they can operate safely under current regulations and laws. Guidance may be found at: http://www.faa.gov/uas/publications/model_aircraft_operators/

Section 336(c) of the Act defines “Model Aircraft” as an unmanned aircraft that is –

(1) Capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;
(2) Flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and (3) Flown for hobby or recreational purposes.

Each element of this definition must be met for a UAS to be considered a Model Aircraft under the Act. Under Section 336(a) of the Act the FAA is restricted from conducting further rulemaking specific to Model Aircraft as defined in section 336(c) so long as the Model Aircraft operations are conducted in accordance with the requirements of section 336(a). Section 336(a) requires that—

4 FAA action on these security concerns support and are informed by the national defense, homeland security, and law enforcement statutory responsibilities and authorities of our interagency partners.
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(1) The aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;

(2) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;

(3) The aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;

(4) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and

(5) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

Model Aircraft that Operate in a Careless or Reckless Manner

Section 336(b) of the Act, however, makes clear that the FAA has the authority under its existing regulations to pursue legal enforcement action against persons operating Model Aircraft when the operations endanger the safety of the NAS, even if they are operating in accordance with section 336(a) and 336(c). So, for example, a Model Aircraft operation conducted in accordance with section 336(a) and (c) may be subject to an enforcement action for violation of 14 C.F.R. § 91.13 if the operation is conducted in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

UAS Operations that are not Model Aircraft Operations

Operations of UAS that are not Model Aircraft operations as defined in section 336(c) of the Act and conducted in accordance with section 336(a) of the Act may only be operated with specific authorization from the FAA. The FAA currently authorizes non-hobby or recreational UAS operations through one of three avenues:

(1) The issuance of a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization, generally to a governmental entity operating a public aircraft;

(2) The issuance of an airworthiness certificate in conjunction with the issuance of a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization; or

(3) The issuance of an exemption under part 11 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations that relies on section 333 (Special Rules for Certain Unmanned Aircraft Systems) of the Act for relief from the airworthiness certificate requirement, also in conjunction with the issuance of a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization.

It is important to understand that all UAS operations that are not operated as Model Aircraft under section 336 of the Act are subject to current and future FAA regulation. At a minimum, any such flights are currently required under the FAA’s regulations to be operated with an
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authorized aircraft (certificated or exempted), with a valid registration number (“N-number”), with a certificated pilot, and with specific FAA authorization (Certificate of Waiver or Authorization).


Regardless of the type of UAS operation, the FAA’s statutes and the Federal Aviation Regulations prohibit any conduct that endangers individuals and property on the surface, other aircraft, or otherwise endangers the safe operation of other aircraft in the NAS. In addition, States and local governments are enacting their own laws regarding the operation of UAS, which may mean that UAS operations may also violate state and local laws specific to UAS operations, as well as broadly applicable laws such as assault, criminal trespass, or injury to persons or property.

UAS Compliance with Airspace Security Requirements

As an aircraft, UAS operations (including those involving Model Aircraft) must be conducted in accordance with the airspace-centric security requirements prescribed by the FAA’s regulations and various implementation tools used by the FAA, specifically including airspace with special flight rules and Notices to Airmen (NOTAM) that define Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFR). It is important that UAS operators and LEAs be familiar with the airspace restrictions respectively relevant to their operations and their enforcement area of responsibility.

The FAA promotes voluntary compliance by educating individual UAS operators about how they can operate safely under current regulations and laws. The FAA also has a number of enforcement tools available including warning notices, letters of correction, and civil penalties. The FAA may take enforcement action against anyone who conducts an unauthorized UAS operation or operates a UAS in a way that endangers the safety of the national airspace system. This authority is designed to protect users of the airspace as well as people and property on the ground.
 
Yep Captainbadge is the undercover troll that has nothing else to do then troll. Find something constructive to say instead of instigating a situation captin we are all pilots here....

Having read the above-quoted sections of the applicable FARs, and since you claim to be a pilot and therefore familiar with them, how do you explain away the obvious?

If anyone is trolling here, ..........;)
 
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Having read the above-quoted sections of the applicable FARs, and since you claim to be a pilot and therefore familiar with them, how do you explain away the obvious?

If anyone is trolling here, ..........;)

Quadpilot, I don't understand your question, but please let me be a troll that can educate you on something even better, rather then explaining my opinion on the FAR's silly little rules, perhaps there is something in the rules they don't want very educated pilot like yourself to know, sometimes have to learn to think in a multidimensional fashion rather then a monopolistic way.... If you choose at this moment of time to consider yourself a "Commercial Drone Pilot" then perhaps your FAR rules would apply, but you have to sometimes out think the fox.

psssst. come a little closer Quadpilot..... believe it or not there is a way that doesn't hinder a drone pilot from being compensated for there work, it's called a... wait for it... wait for it.... A..... "Hobbyist"... yes! I am not going to wait for this administration to pull their finger out there *** and play with people's ambitions and yes, income, I say be smart and get what you can, Legally. Here is a link for you and I won't charge you for the advice and lesson. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...s-from-citizen-journalists-not-professionals/

And one more thing Dronepilot, Yes, I absolutely follow the FAA regulations when I'm in a 320 million dollar plane.... Best of Luck.....
 
Quadpilot, I don't understand your question, but please let me be a troll that can educate you on something even better, rather then explaining my opinion on the FAR's silly little rules, perhaps there is something in the rules they don't want very educated pilot like yourself to know, sometimes have to learn to think in a multidimensional fashion rather then a monopolistic way.... If you choose at this moment of time to consider yourself a "Commercial Drone Pilot" then perhaps your FAR rules would apply, but you have to sometimes out think the fox.

psssst. come a little closer Quadpilot..... believe it or not there is a way that doesn't hinder a drone pilot from being compensated for there work, it's called a... wait for it... wait for it.... A..... "Hobbyist"... yes! I am not going to wait for this administration to pull their finger out there *** and play with people's ambitions and yes, income, I say be smart and get what you can, Legally. Here is a link for you and I won't charge you for the advice and lesson. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...s-from-citizen-journalists-not-professionals/

And one more thing Dronepilot, Yes, I absolutely follow the FAA regulations when I'm in a 320 million dollar plane.... Best of Luck.....

Well, if your "hobby" is gathering video or pics of news-worthy footage and selling that footage to media companies, then you're correct. That is the somewhat strained logic of the FAA at work. This doesn't prevent someone with a COA obtained through a 333 exemption from doing the same, as long as the rather draconian restrictions imposed on commercial operators are adhered to.

I'm not sure how that would help someone skirt the restrictions in gathering footage for real estate, farming, surveying, documentaries or feature films, among the many other imagined uses of aerial footage.

Since you pilot a "320 million dollar plane," I'm sure you have the wherewithal and ratings to easily obtain a COA, so what is the problem? Just wanna be a rebel?
 
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Well, if your "hobby" is gathering video or pics of news-worthy footage and selling that footage to media companies, then you're correct. That is the somewhat strained logic of the FAA at work. This doesn't prevent someone with a COA obtained through a 333 exemption from doing the same, as long as the rather draconian restrictions imposed on commercial operators are adhered to.

I'm not sure how that would help someone skirt the restrictions in gathering footage for real estate, farming, surveying, documentaries or feature films, among the many other imagined uses of aerial footage.

Since you pilot a "320 million dollar plane," I'm sure you have the wherewithal and ratings to easily obtain a COA, so what is the problem? Just wanna be a rebel?
Most expensive Cessna in history.

image.jpg
 
Well, if your "hobby" is gathering video or pics of news-worthy footage and selling that footage to media companies, then you're correct. That is the somewhat strained logic of the FAA at work. This doesn't prevent someone with a COA obtained through a 333 exemption from doing the same, as long as the rather draconian restrictions imposed on commercial operators are adhered to.

I'm not sure how that would help someone skirt the restrictions in gathering footage for real estate, farming, surveying, documentaries or feature films, among the many other imagined uses of aerial footage.

Since you pilot a "320 million dollar plane," I'm sure you have the wherewithal and ratings to easily obtain a COA, so what is the problem? Just wanna be a rebel?


I have had my 333 exemption since 4-23-15. I simply posted this because I want to help the people that don't hold an exemption as of yet but that can earn income for there passion. I don't need the money for this and I don't film for profit. I simply have too much to loose in my career with all the FAA rules to follow..
 
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Hello all,

I have seen several commercial posts here so I thought I could get some good feedback. Currently, my understanding is that the FAA prohibits the use of drones for commercial use unless you have been given a 333 exemption, and in order to qualify you must be a licensed pilot and even then you must still have a qualified observer during flight.

There are some states that have some taken some initiative, like mine (nc), and put forth bills into law allowing the use of drones for commercial use, but wouldn't you still be operating illegally according to the FAA?

A local resource told me I would be even though I believe I would not be.

I would like to know because I have patiently waited to add drone photography to my services while amateurs in my area are making a business with it illegally(?). As a professional and an inspire pilot I always make it a priority to follow all safety and laws, but I'm getting frustrated. I am tired of turning down business.

For those of you that have flown for commercial reasons, what is your interpretation of the current laws and regulations, and have you had any negative response from the FAA for your operation?

Thanks a bunch

I have received my FAA section 333 Exemption which I filed back in April. I too am approaching this as a professional and am also a bit frustrated with the "cowboys" for a couple of reasons. I am able to book work under my exemption, commercially and am also able to request permission to fly within certain restricted zones around Class C airports with prior permission from the FAA tower. I have written all of the appropriate operations and safety manuals/procedures and follow the letter of the restrictions in my Exemption.
What a cowboy sells for $150 acquired during an unsafe and illegal flight would be a minimum of a $750 flight if performed in the parameters I've noted above. However, most of the cognizant firms/agencies are aware of the risk they have by hiring illegal operators. Again, education of the consumer, local law enforcement, and the illegal operators is important to gain business traction and value of the products being offered. Simply said, Do it right, from the start, and educate your clients as to why you are the better choice because you are operating within the FAA laws and regulations.
 
I have received my FAA section 333 Exemption which I filed back in April. I too am approaching this as a professional and am also a bit frustrated with the "cowboys" for a couple of reasons. I am able to book work under my exemption, commercially and am also able to request permission to fly within certain restricted zones around Class C airports with prior permission from the FAA tower. I have written all of the appropriate operations and safety manuals/procedures and follow the letter of the restrictions in my Exemption.
What a cowboy sells for $150 acquired during an unsafe and illegal flight would be a minimum of a $750 flight if performed in the parameters I've noted above. However, most of the cognizant firms/agencies are aware of the risk they have by hiring illegal operators. Again, education of the consumer, local law enforcement, and the illegal operators is important to gain business traction and value of the products being offered. Simply said, Do it right, from the start, and educate your clients as to why you are the better choice because you are operating within the FAA laws and regulations.


Understand where your coming from, even though I don't fly my I1 and Phantoms for profit and I do have a 333 exception for other reasons, I would still consider this, First off, I think it's premature to say that "cowboys" are flying unsafe, they could be a much better pilots and shot takers then you, so that being said, I must also tell you that it is Your choice to take the path that you did being a "Commercial drone pilot" some people may choose Not to take the FAA 333 exception and consider themselves to not be "Commercial" for one reason or another "maybe too much government involvement," and just because these hobbyist want to make a profit for something that they like, they have a choice to do it there way or uncle sam's way.
Prior to me becoming a Commercial Aviation Pilot i was a Licensed Engineering Contractor, I thought the same thing about all the unlicensed contractors on craigslist stealing our business for 1/2 the price because they didn't have to provide Bonds, Liability Insurance, Workmens Comp. ect... I know there were some wreckless unlicensed contractors and unlicensed contractors that did put pride in there work and they couldn't get licensed for a number of reasons, Including Prior Felony Drug Convictions, Child support ect... But even if I came across a job that we had to correct from a unlicensed contractor, I would Never talk about someone else's work because our work said it all. You will Never be able to get rid of the drone pilots that want to do this, so your advice at the end of your statement is true, "Educate your clients" But please don't throw everyone under one umbrella and say things you don't know to be true, after all they can still have liability insurance for their drones without ever becoming a Commercial drone pilot... Happy Flying To All
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...s-from-citizen-journalists-not-professionals/
 
You are just spot on in your analysis DM. It doesn't matter if one is licensed or not because overall in the business world they are all competitors.

One can ***** and whine all they want. Screaming or posting on line on how they are loosing business because of a non-rule follower but seriously who is responsible for them to be successful. The government entity? Ha!

I see this type of activity all the time and it is up to me to make my business successful not some piece of governmental "authorized" paperwork.

My suggestion is get out there. Educate your potential customer but at yhe same educate yourself.

Learn the competitive landscape. Know what potential customer are looking for. Know your competitor. You don't have to be smart you just have to be efficient in your time management because you will not win every battle but you need to learn how to fail also.

Stop Sniveling and Suck It Up Buttercup.
 
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You are just spot on in your analysis DM. It doesn't matter if one is licensed or not because overall in the business world they are all competitors.

One can ***** and whine all they want. Screaming or posting on line on how they are loosing business because of a non-rule follower but seriously who is responsible for them to be successful. The government entity? Ha!

I see this type of activity all the time and it is up to me to make my business successful not some piece of governmental "authorized" paperwork.

My suggestion is get out there. Educate your potential customer but at yhe same educate yourself.

Learn the competitive landscape. Know what potential customer are looking for. Know your competitor. You don't have to be smart you just have to be efficient in your time management because you will not win every battle but you need to learn how to fail also.

Stop Sniveling and Suck It Up Buttercup.

"I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!"


thumbs up.jpg
 
DM, You are correct, and I should have articulated the thought in a better way.
It is my choice to select a path, as it others. I do choose the legitimate path because video is only a portion of the work I pursue, the other being mapping/Pix4D. My concern is more toward those that disregard safety and other elements that jeopardize the rest of us that use good sense and abide by rules. I worry that overbearing legislators may react in knee-jerk fashion against the whole community for the transgressions of a small group of "cowboys". Context of use now defined.
I write this during a break from the monotonous process of writing SOP/MOP manuals along with the other required documents to pursue commercial flight with a UAV. Tedious work that made the attitude flare. So, again, step out from the single umbrella.
 
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I like to use my roofer analogy for these things. I could hire some guy out of the home depot parking lot who used to be a roofer, I provide him with the money or materials he needs to roof my house, he's not licensed, bonded, or insured, so I'm taking a huge risk by letting him do this work. On one hand he will probably do a great job cause he wants to be paid in the end. On the other hand, there could be an incident, maybe he falls or maybe he "falls" (if you know what I'm saying) and that's gonna be a big hit on my home owners insurance to pay him out and I will never hire anybody out of the home depot parking lot again, lesson learned. This is all rather old ideals though, while I'm sure some home owners hire out of home depot's parking lot, most of them will not because of the above reasons.

Now apply that to the rising drone industry, a lot of companies will go through this, they will hire these "cowboys" because they are probably uneducated about how it works and they certainly don't have time to research all the details about it that we already know. But eventually these companies will learn whether through research or personal experience that it's better to hire someone who is licensed and insured and while those don't go hand in hand in this industry the license basically says "I know what I'm doing, here's proof" even though to us it's meaningless (sort of) I've already been turned down for work due to not being approved through the faa...luckily that changed 6-12-2015.

Now on to these "cowboys" while I refrain from putting them under the same umbrella, most of the ones in my area that I've seen are a joke, their work is a joke, their flight skills are a joke, their drones are usually less than desirable but there are some amazing ones too like Shifted Cinema, llc...(and they could even be faa approved by now) and they've done some big clients, including Microsoft and Redbull, but from what I've seen in my area, the cowboys aren't much of a concern.
 
Good stuff you all! I am one of those guys that has a considerable amount invested on various UAVs, spent my time learning to fly, learning more photography skills and the software needed. I have made multiple social groups and have standing by clients, done free coverage and flights to build up my portfolio for moving on my business. Since I hold a security clearance for my "day time' job working on things I can't talk about, I will not do anything to cross the line to make money. Recently though I was approached to do a video shoot for a golf course (I said yes under the pretext of being free). Now some other individual who has no idea of the agreement is running around stating I am stealing his future business because I am doing things illegal. Really! But my point is that we could see our communities in the drone world fighting against each other. I was saddened from hearing about this individual attempting to make claim to a business zone even before he could start. I believe in free enterprise and let the best company win, but the FAA needs to level the playing field!
 
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I like to use my roofer analogy for these things. I could hire some guy out of the home depot parking lot who used to be a roofer, I provide him with the money or materials he needs to roof my house, he's not licensed, bonded, or insured, so I'm taking a huge risk by letting him do this work. On one hand he will probably do a great job cause he wants to be paid in the end. On the other hand, there could be an incident, maybe he falls or maybe he "falls" (if you know what I'm saying) and that's gonna be a big hit on my home owners insurance to pay him out and I will never hire anybody out of the home depot parking lot again, lesson learned. This is all rather old ideals though, while I'm sure some home owners hire out of home depot's parking lot, most of them will not because of the above reasons.

Now apply that to the rising drone industry, a lot of companies will go through this, they will hire these "cowboys" because they are probably uneducated about how it works and they certainly don't have time to research all the details about it that we already know. But eventually these companies will learn whether through research or personal experience that it's better to hire someone who is licensed and insured and while those don't go hand in hand in this industry the license basically says "I know what I'm doing, here's proof" even though to us it's meaningless (sort of) I've already been turned down for work due to not being approved through the faa...luckily that changed 6-12-2015.

Now on to these "cowboys" while I refrain from putting them under the same umbrella, most of the ones in my area that I've seen are a joke, their work is a joke, their flight skills are a joke, their drones are usually less than desirable but there are some amazing ones too like Shifted Cinema, llc...(and they could even be faa approved by now) and they've done some big clients, including Microsoft and Redbull, but from what I've seen in my area, the cowboys aren't much of a concern.
Good then like us in? Oh, just because some of us are not on your playing field does not mean we don't know how to fly, don't have insurance or have poor gear!
 
Good then like us in? Oh, just because some of us are not on your playing field does not mean we don't know how to fly, don't have insurance or have poor gear!

Now on to these "cowboys" while I refrain from putting them under the same umbrella, most of the ones in my area that I've seen are a joke, their work is a joke, their flight skills are a joke, their drones are usually less than desirable but there are some amazing ones too

You obviously missed a lot of points...but, you'll notice I said insurance and being legal to operate don't go hand in hand...ugh nevermind you missed too much to even bother
 
Now on to these "cowboys" while I refrain from putting them under the same umbrella, most of the ones in my area that I've seen are a joke, their work is a joke, their flight skills are a joke, their drones are usually less than desirable but there are some amazing ones too

You obviously missed a lot of points...but, you'll notice I said insurance and being legal to operate don't go hand in hand...ugh nevermind you missed too much to even bother

Yes you lost me with all the high and mighty! You do have good points and there are a lot of irresponsible people out there flying that should not be flying. In the hood canal area it is very clean and there are few UAS units. In fact I have been flying over here for 3 years and yet to see another person up. I have to take my hat off to your start up, I have seen some of your fine work and may run into you in they future. Sorry to get off on the wrong foot! If your in Vegas for the convention in Sept, I'll make it point to look you all up!
 
Yes you lost me with all the high and mighty! You do have good points and there are a lot of irresponsible people out there flying that should not be flying. In the hood canal area it is very clean and there are few UAS units. In fact I have been flying over here for 3 years and yet to see another person up. I have to take my hat off to your start up, I have seen some of your fine work and may run into you in they future. Sorry to get off on the wrong foot! If your in Vegas for the convention in Sept, I'll make it point to look you all up!

Not sure how you get lost...I highlighted some of what you missed for you
 

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