Welcome to InspirePilots.com

Join the leading DJI Inspire community for free!

D-Cinelike Vs D-Log

Discussion in 'Zenmuse X5' started by DroneTechAerial, Apr 2, 2016.

  1. DroneTechAerial

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Malibu, CA
    Hey Everyone,

    We have been looking at using D-Log vs D-Cinelike and given our experience level are trying to appeal to others who know more than us on the post processing end. With Log we understand that you are able to obtain more dynamic range and we have been using log->Rec709 luts somewhat successfully. What is D-Cinelike's objective or purpose? From reading around on the Log vs Cinelike debate in regards to the GH4 it appears that everyone claims that the Cinelike is a way easier workflow. With the Log Luts it appears to be just as easy, but we may be doing it wrong as well. Cinelike looks like it burns in more color but still has that flat looking haze on it. Any advice on applications would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  2. ddublu

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2014
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    11
    I am curious about this as well.
     
  3. Predator

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ottawa,Canada
    I think D Cinelike goves you some sort of tint to the image/video. Cant remember but i tried once and never did again... imo D log is the only one usefull for light Color grading. i just wish they would up the 4k bitrate a bit and i would be satisfied.
     
  4. ianwood

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2014
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    192
    Location:
    Lost Angeles
    Cinelike is mostly a gamma curve style whereas LOG is for increasing latitude.
     
  5. DrMrdalj

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    51
    There are several issues to be considered when choosing between Log and Cinelike. None of them is better per se - best choice strongly depends on camera (bitrate/sampling...) you use.

    Log gama is more suitable for maximum latitude (for keeping better dynamic range) but having in mind that Log workflow uses intensive image processing (where you transform small number of shades into huge number of colors) it works as expected only if you have proper color sampling of 444 or at least 422 with modest compression. X5 and X3 cameras use just 8bits 420 sampling, and compress such video heavily to 60Mbit/s - therefore on these cams Log workflow can easily show much more artifacts in final picture then Cinelike workflow. On the other hand, X5R uses 10bit 444 in "uncompressed" RAW, so X5R is suitable for high quality Log workflow.

    I must point out that, by my experience, Log mode of X3 is not real Log profile, it is much more like X5 Cinelike, while X3 Cinleike mode is useless due to intense orange tint...

    X5 Cinelike mode (similar to X3 Log mode) records video in regular Rec709, with somehow lower contrasts and stretched gamma, therefore it does not require heavy LUT transformations and grading in post (you can use just a bit of color corection). As such picture does not have to be heavily transformed, recording even in modest 8bit 420 60Mbit/s can produce acceptable results... In this way X5 Cinelike / X3 Log image can give you some more room for adjusting picture look then regular Normal profile, and less visible compression/sampling artifacts then full Log workflow in such low sampling and bitrate...

    Hope this helps.
     
    #5 DrMrdalj, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
  6. Phil-RCGeeks

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    69
    Location:
    West Sussex, UK
    I didn't quite understand all of that but from what i did understand.... Thank you! Good to finally know the technical differences between the two
     
  7. DrMrdalj

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    51
    Hi Phil,
    I apologize if you had troubles with my English... This topic is strictly camera/recorder related, so you can gather additional info by searchig for "Log workflow" and "cinelike picture profile" regardless of camera manufacturer/model... Panasonic GH4 has similar settings in its arsenal (V-Log-L vs Cinelike-D). It is obvious that X5 has been in many ways inspired by GH4 - therefore you can get some more clues by reading GH4 Log/Cinelike reviews... Unfortunately X5 records 8bit 420 sampled color at merely 60Mbit/s, what is inferior to GH4's 100Mbit/s, and even GH4 Log workflow produces artifacts in the picture. For GH4 there are 10bit 422 HDMI output and external recorders, while for Inspire1 there is X5R's uncompressed 10bit 444 color where Log really shines... So, if you use X5R feel free to use Log for better dynamic range, while with X5 your safest bet is Cinelike...
     
    #7 DrMrdalj, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
    Stefan Lee likes this.
  8. DroneTechAerial

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Malibu, CA
    Thank you for your detailed explanation. My original post was in respect to the X5, but it was really nice to include your findings on the X3. Nice to know that Cinelike records close to Rec709, I did not know that. I have to look into understand gamma curves still... What artifacts in Log should I be looking for in post besides shaded or dark areas looking noisy?

    We have found the DJI sharpening is horrible and introduces a lot of noise especially in low light. We leave it at -3 at all times and add in post.
     
  9. DrMrdalj

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    51
    Beside noise in dark colors, when Log workflow is used in conjunction with 8bit recorder, even worse when 8bit color is 420 subsampled and heavily compressed in H264, you can easily get "banding" of smooth color tones (such as sky) as well as pronounced "blocking" and color noise... It may happen that these artifacts are not visible right away, but get pronounced after Log video is transponed to broadcast stnadard such as Rec709... In general, that happens due to in camera compression of whole avaiable luma/color dynamic range in just cca 200 shades, as well as by H264 compression blocking. Please have in mind that using Log requires very different way of exposing your shots, and that Log footage requires intensive color grading to achive any benefit out of it - without clear understanding of Log workflow it is easy to ruin your shot... This is very complex technical field, as topic is full of tricky details, uncomplete tutorials and misconceptions, I have no idea how present you some reliable quick tips, so I suggest you search additional literature - you can start with this few links and afterward search for similar phrases>
    for general info

    for GH4 V-Log L, which resembles to X5 D-Log
    V-Log L on the GH4: don’t panic by Adam Wilt - ProVideo Coalition

    as well as with this video
     
    #9 DrMrdalj, Apr 13, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
    apsussex likes this.
  10. DroneTechAerial

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Malibu, CA
    The last one on the Sony SLog was very informative and easily understood. Curious to know if you have followed similar methods for figuring out optimal Log performance with the X5?

    Does anyone know what the IRE of the Zebras are for the X5?
     
  11. DrMrdalj

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    51
    Zebra levels can be adjusted in DJI GO app, if I can recall it correctly this setting was somewhere in general/additional settings - I think you could choose 70,80,90%... In general, zebras shoud shade exactly IRE which they are setted to - 90% should shade 90IRE...

    Regarding the histogram, which I use all the time, it should be noted that histogram analyzes final (displayed) image in GO app, and it is linear by its nature - when shooting in Log you will never hit its lowest bar even when you crush your blacks. When using D-Log I usually consider anything below 1/3 of histogram to be black, and anything below 1/2 to be dark, I target my exposure to have majoritu of my image at 1/2 of histogram and above... Please note that you can easly check where top and bottom clipping points are presented on histogram by strongly overexposing and underexposing while monitoring your histogram...

    I did not make tests to check precision of DJI implementation, but unfortunately I don't belive that implementation is of professional quality (first of all, it works in GO app whare it analyzes downsampled and heavily compressed wireless video feed from the aircraft to controller and then to your tablet)...
     
  12. Quadpilot

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    624
    Likes Received:
    308
    Location:
    Chaska, MN
    I believe you're confusing zebras (over-exposure warning) which I don't believe have any adjustment settings with the red ants for focus-peaking (70%-80%-90% levels). ;)

    Thanks for the histogram discussion, though. I did not realize that the histogram reflected the tablet video feed, rather than the recorded footage.
     
    DrMrdalj likes this.
  13. ianwood

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2014
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    192
    Location:
    Lost Angeles
    I don't trust DJI's histogram. I output to an Atomos Ninja Assassin and use that for exposure. It'll even apply LUTs in real time to half or all of the screen.
     
    gruvpix likes this.
  14. DrMrdalj

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    51
    Yes, you are right, I just have checked and it happens that zebra is unfortunately allways 100% without any adjustment avaiable... As far as I can tell, it happens that all assist features (focus assist, peaking, zebra, histogram) in GO App rely just and only on wireless video feed, which is of fluctuating quality by design... Direct camera control runs focusing, iris, shutter, as well as white balance, which happen in camera...
     
  15. Guido

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi there, do you know what is the source gamma of Phantom 4's cam? I don't like the D-log results so much and I use the color checker for balance temp and colors with great results. But I don know what gamma source I have to check in Resolve, R709 looks good, but Im not sure... Thanks.
     
  16. DrMrdalj

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    51
    I do not own P4, but as far as I know all non-log color styles use Rec709 gamma.
     
  17. Guido

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey, I rally appreciate your answer, and I'm absolutely agree with you.
    D-log + 8Bits / 60/mbs? WTF? Is like trying to use a bicycle in a motocross circuit. None Style and 0-1-1 got me good results, when the sun is very hard, Art style can be useful as well, is not so flat, but more than None. Thanks!
     
    Bigdz and DrMrdalj like this.