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Defective motor or ESC ?

Cool!
Thanks, Bud!!
I'll watch it now. I just finished researching one of the things I wanted to research, more to go though.

Thanks again!

Edit: That's a really good setup! I realize it was a reenactment and you did real good at the timing BTW!! :)

I'll have to download the software and dig into how to use it. I think I can get the hang of interpreting the data with some practice using data from normal events before analyzing events where something went wrong.

Again, Nice work!! :)

Joe
 
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Bud,

In the third example, do you know if the measurements were taken while the AC was in the inverted orientation or the upright orientation? Or........during the transition from upright to inverted?
 
Cool!
Thanks, Bud!!
I'll watch it now. I just finished researching one of the things I wanted to research, more to go though.

Thanks again!

Edit: That's a really good setup! I realize it was a reenactment and you did real good at the timing BTW!! :)

I'll have to download the software and dig into how to use it. I think I can get the hang of interpreting the data with some practice using data from normal events before analyzing events where something went wrong.

Again, Nice work!! :)

Joe
That video was created by @Luap who has done a lot of work on this project. He is the Dashware expert and Dashware was used to make that video. His Dashware profile is available by going here. @Luap is also very good at analyzing flights.
 
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That video was created by @Luap who has done a lot of work on this project. He is the Dashware expert and Dashware was used to make that video. His Dashware profile is available by going here. @Luap is also very good at analyzing flights.

I just watched all of those videos after I downloaded the zip folder and opened it. Nice work indeed!

Did you read my question above about what orientation the quad was in at the time of recording that data?

Thanks!

Joe
 
Bud,

In the third example, do you know if the measurements were taken while the AC was in the inverted orientation or the upright orientation? Or........during the transition from upright to inverted?
I mentioned it was a long story. This incident was upright orientation and the AC didn't invert in this incident.
upload_2016-5-29_16-51-11.png
The incident at the end of the flight started out looking the same but then there was more and apparently the battery dislodged and the .DAT ended there.
upload_2016-5-29_16-56-32.png
The stuff around 672.75 looks like the other incident in the flight. Since there was an acceleration spike associated with this incident I had originally misdiagnosed this as a wind gust caught the AC close to the ground causing it to roll just enough to catch a prop. The stuff around 675 looked a lot like another flight where that happened. It was only after the pilot said that didn't happen that I started looking more into the flight.
 
@Joe R I figured you might want to have the .csv that is the basis of what we've been talking about. The attached .zip contains FLY151.csv which is the whole flight. The .zip also contains FLY151s1.csv and FLY151s2.csv that each contain one of the incidents. These are much smaller than the whole flight version and are easier to manipulate in Excel or Dashware.

If you want the original .DAT go here.
 

Attachments

  • Fly151.zip
    8.9 MB · Views: 4
@Joe R I figured you might want to have the .csv that is the basis of what we've been talking about. The attached .zip contains FLY151.csv which is the whole flight. The .zip also contains FLY151s1.csv and FLY151s2.csv that each contain one of the incidents. These are much smaller than the whole flight version and are easier to manipulate in Excel or Dashware.

If you want the original .DAT go here.

Yes, that would help a lot.

I did come up with a fair interpretation and was in the process of responding when you posted this. The response I was writing was based on a few assumptions on my part so this will help me to remove some or all of those assumptions.

Edit: This is much better since I can now tell which axis is doing what at any any given time. It helps to see all information associated with the flight.
It'll take me some time to go through it though.
Thanks again for this!!

I will be downloading datcon and working on how to use it.
I find all of this to be very interesting! I really enjoy figuring things out and learning. My wife says I'm a career learning junky! :)
I especially enjoy being able to tell what happened during an event (expected or not)!!


Thank you!!

Joe
 
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Yes, that would help a lot.

I did come up with a fair interpretation and was in the process of responding when you posted this. The response I was writing was based on a few assumptions on my part so this will help me to remove some or all of those assumptions.

Edit: This is much better since I can now tell which axis is doing what at any any given time. It helps to see all information associated with the flight.
It'll take me some time to go through it though.
Thanks again for this!!

I will be downloading datcon and working on how to use it.
I find all of this to be very interesting! I really enjoy figuring things out and learning. My wife says I'm a career learning junky! :)
I especially enjoy being able to tell what happened during an event (expected or not)!!


Thank you!!

Joe
I'm really glad you like this thing. Analyzing flights is fun, mostly. Watching guys like you use DatCon is even more fun. Lemme know if you need anything.
 
Hi Mr. "Walker" :)

Sorry it took me so long to post this, I had to go to the doctor to get some antibiotics to kick this sinus infection in the butt. :mad:

As I was starting to make some sense out of the third example in the first post you made with the graphs when I ran across something else that caught my attention pretty hard (that part was in the .csv files you posted).
But first, in that third example where the Phantom inverted in flight, the motor load going low at the same point as the spikes made sense because the motor commands had made some large dips at that same point. But, those dips weren't present in the acceleration graph that was just above the graph with motor load, motor speed and motor command.
The acceleration spikes would only make sense if the wind was gusty enough to cause them and even then it's questionable. Maybe it was sheer coincidence that the spikes lined up like that.
The motor speed didn't jump enough to cause such sharp and brief spikes like that. I mean we're looking at very small fractions of a second. According to the .csv files, it was fairly windy but I didn't notice anything that would suggest that there were turbulent gusts of wind present.

The following observations make me wonder if the data is reliable.

I was doing some simple page by page comparisons when I noticed that the Phantom was powered up almost 5 1/2 minutes before the motors were started. I began to look for signs that the GPS had been calibrated and found that it had been calibrated (by studying the amount that the compass had turned and the amount that it had rotated on various axis).

I saw where a CSC had been performed by the controller and that was verified by the motor command signals, the motor speed and the fact that the flight clock started at "0" at that point. All seemed to be fairly normal so far.
It used to be that after a compass calibration, we were supposed to cycle the power off and back on again before takeoff but according to the manual, that's not the case anymore (That seems to only apply to my S800 and S1000, I don't know about others).
Have a look at this screenshot:

Motor%20Start%20with%20Control%20Stck%20Commands_zpsxkehhcxa.jpg

Sorry, I wrote CSC Command, duh, the last C in CSC stands for command, it was a senior moment and I didn't feel like taking the time to go back and change it. Lol

Then, 6 seconds later the motors were shut down by lowering the throttle stick all the way to the bottom.
I'm not sure why the motors were shut down just 6 seconds after they were started but according to the .csv file, they were.
All still seemed fairly normal though.
Have a look at this next screenshot:

Motors%20Shutdown%20with%20Throttle%20Cut_zpsj3pjlzmu.jpg

Motor%20Start%20with%20Control%20Stck%20Commands_zpsxkehhcxa.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Motor%20Start%20with%20Control%20Stck%20Commands_zpsxkehhcxa.jpg


Now, "THIS" is where things get really weird or strange or alarming or however you would like to describe it.
When I scrolled down to find when the motors were started again, I noticed right away that the motors did start (according to the .csv file) but "Without" "ANY" input signals from the remote control. :eek:
The motor commands were there but no command from the remote control, no CSC, nothing..........it was 6 seconds after they were shut down the first time (it took 1 second for the CSC to cycle).
Checkout this next screenshot!!!

Motors%20Restart%20Without%20RC%20Commands%20-%20Restart%20is%20Only%20from%20FC%20Motor%20Commands_zpsnfbkga0a.jpg


This would mean that the motors actually started by themselves "IF" the .csv file is correct.
This sort of thing is what makes me wonder if and when the .dat files and the subsequent .csv files are correct.

You say this Phantom went inverted and flew into the ground. Did the files become corrupt as a result of the crash, or........was there something seriously wrong with the flight system before the crash and was the "cause" of the crash to begin with. If the FC or whatever was already faulty, isn't it possible that the data is wrong as a direct result of the faulty FC or other component??

The flight was just over 14 minutes and I didn't notice the motors slow down any again until the last couple of seconds of the flight, then they slowed down from an average of 4500 rpm to around 1300 rpm.
The voltage at the end of the flight was still 14.5 volts (average of 3.64 volts per cell)

The motors starting with no control signal (CSC) from the remote is a real mystery to me (if they actually did start without performing a CSC). Maybe a CSC was performed to start the motors but the .csv file doesn't show it?

Many of the other numbers indicated a fairly normal flight in windy conditions but there were a few that indicated serious problems, either there were real problems with the Phantom, or a problem with the files.........or both?

Am I missing something here??

I just can't help but believe that there were some serious issues with both the Phantom and the files but that's just my take on it.

Anyone care to shed more light on this one? I've been through it a few times and I keep coming up with the same conclusion.

Thanks!

Joe
 
Sorry, I managed to insert FLY152.csv in that .zip instead of FLY151.csv. FLY152 is another flight I've been looking at. You probably spent a lot of time analyzing the wrong flight and for that I apologize. The attached ..zip has FLY151.csv. You're right that FLY152 had a compass calibration and there where multiple motorStarts.

FLY151 never actually went inverted.

Accel(M/s) = SQRT (AccelX**2 + AccelY**2 + AccelZ**2) so it will always be > 0. It won't go < 0 when the motorCommanded dips. It's computed by DatCon and is one of the convenience functions. When the AC hits the ground or gets whacked by a bird it can be from any direction. It was always a hassle looking at all three axes so that's why accel(M/S) was invented.

I'm looking at the rest of your post.
 

Attachments

  • FLY151.zip
    6.6 MB · Views: 0
Dear @BudWalker
hi
I found your DatCon application so useful but I could not use DashWar.
Would you please shear sequence of Dashwar Install on PC or create an Forum Page for that.
 
Sorry, I managed to insert FLY152.csv in that .zip instead of FLY151.csv. FLY152 is another flight I've been looking at. You probably spent a lot of time analyzing the wrong flight and for that I apologize. The attached ..zip has FLY151.csv. You're right that FLY152 had a compass calibration and there where multiple motorStarts.

FLY151 never actually went inverted.

Accel(M/s) = SQRT (AccelX**2 + AccelY**2 + AccelZ**2) so it will always be > 0. It won't go < 0 when the motorCommanded dips. It's computed by DatCon and is one of the convenience functions. When the AC hits the ground or gets whacked by a bird it can be from any direction. It was always a hassle looking at all three axes so that's why accel(M/S) was invented.

I'm looking at the rest of your post.

Thank you, Bud,

I'm pretty familiar with acceleration and the measurement methods.
An object in free fall will register zero but never less than zero. An object that is stationary will measure 1 or 1 g. An object that is ascending will simply be added to 1 g. It's all related to gravity and the rate of acceleration across the earth's surface over a given period of time (even if it's in the air).
Yeah, there's a lot more to it than that and there are lots of formulas depending on the situation.
I used to use accelerometers to measure the magnitude of vibrations in large industrial machines. Sometimes we used them to determine how many pounds in force a machine had on a concrete floor if the parts were moving up and down. In one case, we were able to determine that a 10,000 pound weaving machine (for manufacturing cloth) had a force of 4 times the weight of the machine which resulted in 40,000 pound of force on the floor (10,000 pounds on each of the 4 legs bolted to the floor, it was a gantry style setup). To prevent that vibration from transmitting across the concrete floor, we cut 3 foot by 3 foot squares out of the floor at the gantry legs, then dug down four feet and installed high density foam on the sidewalls. Then we filled that hole with concrete to form a monolithic pad to isolate the vibrations from the main floor. There are a of of applications for accelerometers.

Not a problem about analyzing the wrong .csv file. It was good to learn how to analyze one of these by just studying the .csv file.
I'm still curious about why the file didn't indicate a CSC from the remote when the motors re-started at 13 seconds.

I'll study the file FLY151.csv soon but today I have to design a small hand operated machine that will be used for inserting cup shaped plastic seals into 8 pound ink cartridges. The ink cartridges are used in printing machines that print all kinds of packaging like those thin boxes that most all products are packed in.

Thank you!! :)

Joe
 
Dear @BudWalker
hi
I found your DatCon application so useful but I could not use DashWar.
Would you please shear sequence of Dashwar Install on PC or create an Forum Page for that.
Did you go here to get the Dashware profile? The Dashware profile that you download is actually a .zip file that contains the files necessary to install the profile. The .zip aslo contains a readme.txt that explains how to install the profile. The installation problems that I've experienced have been because I didn't follow those instructions exactly.

Dashware profile also contains some YouTube videos explaining how to install and use the Dashware profile.
 
Thank you, Bud,
.....
I'm still curious about why the file didn't indicate a CSC from the remote when the motors re-started at 13 seconds.
...
I believe you are referring to this
upload_2016-6-1_11-12-17.png
upload_2016-6-1_11-12-43.png
The first motorStart is because of the CSC that you can see in the second plot. The throttle is brought all the way back at 6 secs and the motors stop. There is then another motorStart at 13 secs but no CSC.

In addition to the binary data the .DAT contains 2 text streams; one that provides AC configuration information and the other is an event log. Both can be extracted as an option when DatCon runs.

The relevant portion of the eventLog is

-.002 : 204597 : 16784 [M.Start]REQ_RC_NORMAL
-.002 : 204597 : 16784 [Ctrl<2>] REQ_RC_COMMAND ENGINE_START ctrl_engine_start
.018 : 204609 : 16785 [IOC.CL ] 172.7 Degree
.018 : 204609 : 16785 [TO.ALT ] -11.323358
.018 : 204609 : 16785 43.5679423 -79.5619520 8.68 Home Point
.218 : 204729 : 16795 airport limit data need update[1095925834][1073741824]
.438 : 204861 : 16806 [LED] changed: set home
1.938 : 205761 : 16881 [LED] changed: normal led
2.018 : 205809 : 16885 [Ctrl<2>] REQ_RC_COMMAND ASST_TAKEOFF_HOLD ctrl_asst_takeoff
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 [M. Stop]landing.exit_takeoff
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 Motor Start 1 Total 6.70
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 CTRL reset all by motor stopped
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 [Ctrl<2>] REQ_RC_COMMAND ENGINE_START ctrl_engine_start
6.718 : 208629 : 17120 [Ctrl<1>] REQ_RC_NORMAL ATTI_HOLD ctrl_gps_atti
8.738 : 209841 : 17221 iwdg_set_max_timeout befor set swdg_timeout(0x00000120)!
8.738 : 209841 : 17221 iwdg_set_time_out time_out(0x00000ffa)!
8.738 : 209841 : 17221 iwdg_set_swdg_time_out time_out(4090) set g_swdg_timeout_max(0x000007ab)
13.198 : 212517 : 17395 [Ctrl<7>] REQ_APP_WM610 ENGINE_START ctrl_engine_start
13.218 : 212529 : 17396 [M.Start]ACT.Takeoff


At time -.002 (the first and secondline) RC starts the motors. At time 13.198 (second to the last line) the motors are started by the tablet app doing a waypoint mission "REQ_APP_WM610".
 

Attachments

  • upload_2016-6-1_11-11-43.png
    upload_2016-6-1_11-11-43.png
    14.4 KB · Views: 3
Last edited:
I believe you are referring to this
View attachment 8709
View attachment 8710
The first motorStart is because of the CSC that you can see in the second plot. The throttle is brought all the way back at 6 secs and the motors stop. There is then another motorStart at 13 secs but no CSC.

The .DAT contains 2 text streams; one that provides AC configuration information and the other is an event log. Both can be extracted as an option when DatCon runs.

The relevant portion of the eventLog is

-.002 : 204597 : 16784 [M.Start]REQ_RC_NORMAL
-.002 : 204597 : 16784 [Ctrl<2>] REQ_RC_COMMAND ENGINE_START ctrl_engine_start
.018 : 204609 : 16785 [IOC.CL ] 172.7 Degree
.018 : 204609 : 16785 [TO.ALT ] -11.323358
.018 : 204609 : 16785 43.5679423 -79.5619520 8.68 Home Point
.218 : 204729 : 16795 airport limit data need update[1095925834][1073741824]
.438 : 204861 : 16806 [LED] changed: set home
1.938 : 205761 : 16881 [LED] changed: normal led
2.018 : 205809 : 16885 [Ctrl<2>] REQ_RC_COMMAND ASST_TAKEOFF_HOLD ctrl_asst_takeoff
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 [M. Stop]landing.exit_takeoff
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 Motor Start 1 Total 6.70
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 CTRL reset all by motor stopped
6.698 : 208617 : 17119 [Ctrl<2>] REQ_RC_COMMAND ENGINE_START ctrl_engine_start
6.718 : 208629 : 17120 [Ctrl<1>] REQ_RC_NORMAL ATTI_HOLD ctrl_gps_atti
8.738 : 209841 : 17221 iwdg_set_max_timeout befor set swdg_timeout(0x00000120)!
8.738 : 209841 : 17221 iwdg_set_time_out time_out(0x00000ffa)!
8.738 : 209841 : 17221 iwdg_set_swdg_time_out time_out(4090) set g_swdg_timeout_max(0x000007ab)
13.198 : 212517 : 17395 [Ctrl<7>] REQ_APP_WM610 ENGINE_START ctrl_engine_start
13.218 : 212529 : 17396 [M.Start]ACT.Takeoff


At time -.002 (the first and secondline) RC starts the motors. At time 13.198 (second to the last line) the motors are started by the tablet app doing a waypoint mission "REQ_APP_WM610".


Gotcha, I didn't think about the motors being started from the app (auto takeoff) until about an hour ago while working on my design project. I decided to come back to have another look to see if it that was the case when I saw this post.
Now it makes sense.
I've never used auto takeoff so it didn't dawn on me right off.
I always start the motors and takeoff manually even if it's a waypoint flight, especially since it has to be airborne before you can engage waypoints anyway. At least that's the way it works on the Inspires.

Thanks for clearing that one up.

I gotta get back to work on the design project, break is over for now. :-(

Thanks again!

Joe
 
....
I've never used auto takeoff so it didn't dawn on me right off.
I always start the motors and takeoff manually even if it's a waypoint flight, especially since it has to be airborne before you can engage waypoints anyway. ....
Same here.
 
Should we be concerned about hijacking @Sciro16V 's thread?

Good point!

I hope Sciro16V doesn't mind and maybe we can help him out if he's willing to provide us (you?) with the .dat file. Maybe we can help him figure out what might be wrong?

Sciro16V, could you get the .dat file off of your bird and upload it? I',m under the impression that it's a large file and should be uploaded to a dropbox folder so we can download it. Dropbox should be used because of the large file size? I'd certainly be willing to help in any way I can!
If you don't have dropbox, you can get a free account that will allow you to upload 2.25 GB and I assume that should be enough for a .dat file.

It may be worth a try. :)

Thanks,

Joe
 

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