Flights above 400 feet

[Meta4]

OK, the first question is will the current firmware in the USA permit me to make this as a single flight or will I need to break it up into 3 or more separate flights to avoid exceeding 400 in any one flight? That is, will the drone allow this or not?

The Inspire will allow you to ascend 500 metres above home point.

Second question is, if the drone permits me to do this am I legal to do it? Again, I don't think there's anyplace where I'd be over 400 feet above the ground at any moment in time but over the 3 miles and dozen switch backs the total gain would be 1200 feet.

Your US legal height is 400 feet above ground level so if you are 400 feet (or less) above the ground you are in compliance.

Going the other way, going down from the top that is, what limitations if any are there in descending BELOW the take off location? Can I descend 400 feet? More?

You can descend well below home point. I have heard an unconfirmed report of a limit but never gone that far downwards to test it.

 

[RaptorMan]

The Inspire will allow you to ascend 500 metres above home point.

Your US legal height is 400 feet above ground level so if you are 400 feet (or less) above the ground you are in compliance.

You can descend well below home point. I have heard an unconfirmed report of a limit but never gone that far downwards to test it.

Thanks Meta4 that does clear things up. But the rules certainly have a grey area in the elevation limits when you're talking about hilly or mountainous terrain and particularly cliffs. If you have a pure vertical rock wall of, say 1000 feet a strict interpretation of the rules say you'd only be permitted to fly up from the bottom 400 feet and that if you started from the top you'd not be permitted to go past the edge as at that point you'd be 1000 AGL. I can imagine many places that would have that kind of problem and it would be nice if there was some more guidance on this.


Brian

 

[huppe]

Going the other way, going down from the top that is, what limitations if any are there in descending BELOW the take off location? Can I descend 400 feet? More?

Going down from the top has no limits.If your on android you can use Litchi.I use this for work and on regular base I go higher on altitude than DJI limits.Not sure with the latest version of Litchi since I don't do any updates on DJI app and Litchi sine 4 months.

 

[RaptorMan]

Going down from the top has no limits.If your on android you can use Litchi.I use this for work and on regular base I go higher on altitude than DJI limits.Not sure with the latest version of Litchi since I don't do any updates on DJI app and Litchi sine 4 months.

Thanks huppe, knowing that you can go down below the launch point is very helpful as there are places you can only reach by car from the top. Living in Utah there are a great many canyons that I'd love to be able to fly through and knowing I can start at the top and fly down is hugely important. Of course, I'm talking outside the national parks...

I plan to get Litchi as well but figure to first get some experience flying the I1 before adding and the learning Litchi. I am an Android guy and have a Samsung Note 4 phone and 8.4 tablet.


Brian

 

[huppe]

Thanks huppe, knowing that you can go down below the launch point is very helpful as there are places you can only reach by car from the top. Living in Utah there are a great many canyons that I'd love to be able to fly through and knowing I can start at the top and fly down is hugely important. Of course, I'm talking outside the national parks...

I plan to get Litchi as well but figure to first get some experience flying the I1 before adding and the learning Litchi. I am an Android guy and have a Samsung Note 4 phone and 8.4 tablet.


Brian

Can't wait to see some Utah footage.I've been there a couple of times for mountainbiking and for me the best place in the world to do.Really love the scenery over there.

 

[White Airwolf]

The Inspire is locked at 500 meters, not 400 feet!
That's over 1600 feet! The law might say 400 feet but you can certainly fly higher!

 

[RaptorMan]

The Inspire is locked at 500 meters, not 400 feet!
That's over 1600 feet! The law might say 400 feet but you can certainly fly higher!

The good thing about the 500m hard limit is that I can climb more than 400 feet even though I never exceed 400 feet above the ground.

The only problem then is how you deal with cliff areas where the height of the cliff exceeds 400 feet. By the rules you would not be permitted to fly beyond the edge from the top and would only be able to climb 400 feet from the bottom. So, if there was a 1000 foot shear rock wall you would not be able to fly between 400 feet and the top no matter which direction you started from be it top or bottom.


Brian

 

[FASTFJR]

The good thing about the 500m hard limit is that I can climb more than 400 feet even though I never exceed 400 feet above the ground.

The only problem then is how you deal with cliff areas where the height of the cliff exceeds 400 feet. By the rules you would not be permitted to fly beyond the edge from the top and would only be able to climb 400 feet from the bottom. So, if there was a 1000 foot shear rock wall you would not be able to fly between 400 feet and the top no matter which direction you started from be it top or bottom.


Brian

Thats why the 400ft rule is BS. I understand in urban areas and around airports. I have a friend living in Wyoming out in the middle of no where. Sorry but when I'm out there filing the hills which exceed the valley by 1000ft I'm not following the 400ft rule

 

[RaptorMan]

I can understand the desire to limit our encroachment into airspace used by civil aviation as our little drones are very small and hard to see so aircraft operating on VFR flight rules at low altitude could easily slam into a drone if it's at there altitude. I think we would need some form of transponder, but even then I don't think many Cessna 152's have any gear capable of seeing us beyond the pilots eyes.

In urban areas where helicopters are common they are often below 1000 feet and in places outside of airports.


Bria

 

[hakaniniman]

1st, GET RID OF THE FEET/INCH/....NON deci/centi/mili metric sistem, only used now by usa...causes crash on big planes, construction problems, geez, even Hubble telescope was ruined fir mis use of weird and stubborn use of non decimalmetric sistem and gallons over liters....and no need to mention temperature scale, pfffff.
Learn metric sistem and jump on the new values soon. only in usa huh?if so, climb as hogh as you need and fly low as you need, make shure to save batteryto climbup, or land at lower safe point, no limits downwards....

 

[IrishSights]

1st, GET RID OF THE FEET/INCH/....NON deci/centi/mili metric sistem, only used now by usa...causes crash on big planes, construction problems, geez, even Hubble telescope was ruined fir mis use of weird and stubborn use of non decimalmetric sistem and gallons over liters....and no need to mention temperature scale, pfffff.
Learn metric sistem and jump on the new values soon. only in usa huh?if so, climb as hogh as you need and fly low as you need, make shure to save batteryto climbup, or land at lower safe point, no limits downwards....

Aviation generally uses feet for altitude so getting rid of feet is an absolute non starter.

I have no idea what the rest of your post is about.

 

[Meta4]

But the rules certainly have a grey area in the elevation limits when you're talking about hilly or mountainous terrain and particularly cliffs. If you have a pure vertical rock wall of, say 1000 feet a strict interpretation of the rules say you'd only be permitted to fly up from the bottom 400 feet and that if you started from the top you'd not be permitted to go past the edge as at that point you'd be 1000 AGL. I can imagine many places that would have that kind of problem and it would be nice if there was some more guidance on this.

You have to use common sense. You won't find an FAA man hanging from a cliff with a tape measure.
And you won't find any Cessnas skimming along the face of the cliff - they will want to have a safe horizontal separation distance.

 

[RaptorMan]

You have to use common sense. You won't find an FAA man hanging from a cliff with a tape measure.
And you won't find any Cessnas skimming along the face of the cliff - they will want to have a safe horizontal separation distance.

Yes, that's what I'd guess as well.

There's one place I'd love to shoot via drone but the cliff face is a shear wall nearly 1000 feet high so technically you can't fly over the edge. The place, Horsehoe Bend just south of Page AZ is a great photo op and I've only ever been able to photograph from the top via camera on tripod and being able to fly into the gorge and go down to the river would be hugely desirable. I've seen a drone video where someone has done this, but my read of the regs says that's illegal and I'd rather not ruin it for others.

Horseshoe Bend (Arizona) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Brian

 

[The Editor]

Yes, that's what I'd guess as well.

There's one place I'd love to shoot via drone but the cliff face is a shear wall nearly 1000 feet high so technically you can't fly over the edge. The place, Horsehoe Bend just south of Page AZ is a great photo op and I've only ever been able to photograph from the top via camera on tripod and being able to fly into the gorge and go down to the river would be hugely desirable. I've seen a drone video where someone has done this, but my read of the regs says that's illegal and I'd rather not ruin it for others.

Horseshoe Bend (Arizona) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Brian

Correct - its a National Park so off limits but I agree, its a beautiful spot.

 

[RaptorMan]

Correct - its a National Park so off limits but I agree, its a beautiful spot.

I can't seem to find if there's any distinction between National Park, National Monument, National Recreation Area, or National Forest -- do we know if drones are banned in all these areas?


Brian

 

[RaptorMan]

I think I can answer my own question ...

According to this website...

Don't Fly Drones Here

There's really no stretch of the Colorado River from some miles south of Moab until well south of Hoover Dam that we're permitted to fly. Kind of sucks that good stretches of the Colorado are outside of the park boundaries per se but are nonetheless off limits. I was hoping to be able to fly around the Colorado south of 89A and before you enter the park itself, but it looks like every tributary along the Colorado is off limits.

The map above seems to indicate that the off limits region is entirely contained within the river canyon and does not extend beyond the rim in this area so I guess one could fly outside the area close to the boundary and be able to view the river and canyon, but as close as you'd need to be to get a view you're certainly at risk of being accused of a violation even if you stay beyond the boundary.

Does anyone know of a more authoritative website the you can go to to determine if drones are permitted? If so -- link...


Brian

 

[ovisopa]

If your goal was to photograph a very large area, I can tell you that going higher maybe won't be the best way to do it.

I had to do ortophotos for someone and tried from 120m (400ft) and from 300m (984ft), well because the one from 300m had a too low resolution it wasn't usable, in the end I made more photos from 120m and stiched them using mapsmadeeasy.com website , it went great.

Now I just did a 366.012 acres (148.043 ha / 0.5719 sq. mi.) ortophoto, my only problem is that I only have just 2 batteries, next week I'll buy another one or two (those ware stiched with Pix4D free - but only for my reference, I will send the original photos to mapsmadeeasy service when I'll make some more as the final area I need to make is 270ha, those photos ware also made automatically using Map Pilot App , the max altitude for autopilots I think it is 120m or 400ft, if you want to go higher I think you will have to fly manually and set the camera to 5seconds timer )

Bellow I will attach the high resolution photos, the I1 was flown manually with camera set on timer - 5s

High Resolution stiched by MME (120m / 400ft) (Color terain height profile)
High Resolution stiched by MME (300m / 980ft) (Color terrain height profile)

PS. I'd love if I could go on automatic flying at about 150m, at that altitude I still get decent ortophotos. But still you can do it manually and looking at the map and try to draw straight lines, and check to overlap the terrain by at least 50% from line to line

 

[RaptorMan]

If your goal was to photograph a very large area, I can tell you that going higher maybe won't be the best way to do it.

I had to do ortophotos for someone and tried from 120m (400ft) and from 300m (984ft), well because the one from 300m had a too low resolution it wasn't usable, in the end I made more photos from 120m and stiched them using mapsmadeeasy.com website , it went great.

Now I just did a 366.012 acres (148.043 ha / 0.5719 sq. mi.) ortophoto, my only problem is that I only have just 2 batteries, next week I'll buy another one or two (those ware stiched with Pix4D free - but only for my reference, I will send the original photos to mapsmadeeasy service when I'll make some more as the final area I need to make is 270ha, those photos ware also made automatically using Map Pilot App , the max altitude for autopilots I think it is 120m or 400ft, if you want to go higher I think you will have to fly manually and set the camera to 5seconds timer )

Bellow I will attach the high resolution photos, the I1 was flown manually with camera set on timer - 5s

High Resolution stiched by MME (120m / 400ft) (Color terain height profile)
High Resolution stiched by MME (300m / 980ft) (Color terrain height profile)

PS. I'd love if I could go on automatic flying at about 150m, at that altitude I still get decent ortophotos. But still you can do it manually and looking at the map and try to draw straight lines, and check to overlap the terrain by at least 50% from line to line

You will lose detail as you get farther away no doubt about it, but you can use longer lenses to bring that back while providing the perspective that going higher may give you. A lot of folks just use the lens that they had from the beginning so if limited to a 15mm lens your compositions will be a bit limited. This is why I've been looking into and asking about the other lenses that may be usable on the I1 Pro X5.

I expect to have 5 lenses petty quickly: 12mm, 15mm (factory), 17mm, 25mm and 45mm, but if the Sigma 60mm works out and DJI once again allows it to be used that would offer greater reach. The other long lens option is the 35-100mm zoom which should be light enough but may require a counter weight to properly balance. If that works out I could have lenses that cover from 12mm to 100mm or an 8:1 range.

If you're trying to do survey work you would probably be better off higher and then use a longer lens to get the detail you need with stitching. Higher up would reduce some distortion effects.

We're seeing a number of developers working on various autopilot like features and some are done so you can focus on the camera. These are interesting times are they not...


Brian

 

[ovisopa]

If you have X5 indeed you have other options, but how fast can the X5 make photos on timer? as you zoom in you will either need to
- go way up or make the photos more often to have a overlap of more than 50% (I usually had the overlap around 70%, and they call this Medium overlap, 90% is High, 60% is low),
- or fly with a slower speed, but this will take more time to finish the job, and I'm sure the time is even more reduced because of the extra X5 weight, right ?

 

[RaptorMan]

I'll have to see what kind of overlap is needed from the air, but when I make panos from the ground I generally limit the overlap to 25% and sometimes as little as 10%. I think you'll need more overlap doing aerial panos as the camera will tend to be tilted down making the area covered more of an isosceles trapezoid than a rectangle. When the camera angle is nearly horizontal as it would tend to be on the ground or if you shoot nearly straight down then you should be able to use a lower overlap like 20%, but when the angle is more like -45 degrees then you may have to increase the overlap to more like 50% or even more.


Brian