Is the Prores upgrade worth it?

[Stratospheric]

Could somebody tell me how much the Prores upgrade is and is the image quality that much betterwhen considering the increase in storage needed? At present we can't afford it along with the SSD drives so will be using h264/5.. We are just looking at doing real estate, weddings, promotional ads and sports events so is it worth it for this type of videos?

Thanks

 

[Steelej]

Probably not worth it for that kind of shooting. Do you do any ground based video or is this purely an aerial business?

John.

 

[Stratospheric]

At the moment we don't have any ground shooting ability but we are just starting out.

 

[SWINDY]

Depends on who's hiring you. Real estate, weddings not worth it if it's about getting a return on investment. They won't know/care if exposed right.

IMO: Agencies and DP's may ask for pro res - just upgrade if the job is asked for it. Getting great dynamic shots that you can get from drones is more important.

Image quality is nice in pro res and dng.

 

[Inspire1vision]

Yes


Sent from my iPad using InspirePilots

 

[Advexure]

To add a ProRes license is $500, or with the Premium Combo you get both the ProRes and CinemaDNG licenses along with your Inspire 2 and X5S. The one thing to note with the licenses is if you buy them together with the Premium Combo you can save $200 as opposed to buying them each separately later on.

 

[srandall25]

I've analyzed the ProRes footage up against the H.264 footage (shot simultaneously) and I see very marginal difference in the footage. The ProRes footage does have a slightly better color preservation and less aliasing, but you won't notice this too much unless you're really zoomed in on the footage. The other issue with ProRes footage right now is that DJI chose not to implement lens correction prior to encoding the ProRes footage in camera. Therefore you must spend even more time in post production correcting the lens distortion, which oh by the way, there is no lens profile released for this. So it's a guesstimate to do this manually. The H.264/H.265 footage doesn't have this issue as the lens correction is done for you at the time of encoding.

 

[Feet Up]

Hi Strat,

ProRes and DNG will open up worlds of Flexibility, Options and frankly, Error Correction that simply doesn't exist with 8 bit 100 Mbps files. It is not a matter of a single shoot going well. You want to get it right every time.

 

[Barry Goyette]

---The ProRes footage does have a slightly better color preservation and less aliasing, but you won't notice this too much unless you're really zoomed in on the footage.

Scott's comparison of H264 to ProRes in DLog showed significant differences in color resolution and false detail/aliasing. (you can find a lengthy discussion of it over at RCGroups). I wouldn't understate these, for anyone expecting a professional image, they are a telling difference between the two codecs.. A better comparison might be h264 in D-cinelike to ProRes in D-log--the aliasing of the H264 would be there, but there may be less loss of color information. I'd never recommend shooting H264 in D-Log.

-----ProRes and DNG will open up worlds of Flexibility, Options and frankly, Error Correction that simply doesn't exist with 8 bit 100 Mbps files.

Insert the word "should" for "will" in the preceding statement by Mr. Feet, regarding ProRes. Currently the ProRes implementation in the I2 is missing a lot that it should have. ProRes 4444XQ is a 12bit codec with a "near Raw" data rate...yet DJI has throttled it to 10bit, making its inclusion somewhat superfluous, as it is nearly identical to the 4:2:2 HQ at more than twice the data load. Full implementation will mean at least the inclusion of a 12bit HD/2k 4444 flavor, and ideally a more complete set of resolutions and aspect ratios.

The Lens correction issue is a huge problem for this implementation of ProRes. Why have a high quality, production ready codec if we're supposed to go back to 2012 and correct wide angle distortions like it's a go pro strapped to the bottom of a Phantom 1? There is currently no way to accurately correct distortions and vignetting, and no way, period, to correct chromatic aberrations, which are rampant with these lenses if profiles are not applied properly.

There are mixed signals coming out of DJI as to whether they will or won't fix the lens corrections in ProRes. My guess is if they do anything it will be a cropped H2/2k mode in 4:2:2. I think there are hardware limitations that will eliminate making the fix for 4k and 5k.

As someone who bought the full package on day one (ok...day 12)...today, I wouldn't invest in the ProRes license until they fix it. Currently RAW is the only way currently to get the best quality out of this machine, albeit with all that means in terms of workflow. If you are an advanced amateur and only want the best imagery, and have a lot of time to burn...go with the RAW. If you work in production and are looking for best quality that you can just drop in your NLE (that's me) you're kinda screwed as things stand, although, If you are mostly shooting with the 25 and 45mm lenses, the ProRes license might be viable as the distortions are less noticeable with those lenses (although chromatic aberration is still a problem).

 

[Steelej]

. If you are an advanced amateur and only want the best imagery, and have a lot of time to burn...go with the RAW.

There is no situation in which an amateur needs RAW it's a waste of time and storage space to go on YouTube .

John.

 

[Barry Goyette]

I think your definition of amateur and mine are very different. As somebody who has been working professionally every day for 30 years, doing higher end work in mostly in smaller markets, I can tell you that a RAW workflow isn't part of most production budgets that I see. I think this is true for most broadcast and dramatic television as well. In professional environments RAW is used mostly in feature film and national commercials that have extensive grading requirements.

However, an advanced amateur...someone who does it "for love" and is truly interested in the best quality they can get out of these machines, or a young person just getting started in the business...they may have a lot of time on their hands to shoot and process RAW. The workflow isn't difficult, just time consuming -- it's actually a joy to anyone familiar with photoshop and ACR.

 

[NickU]

There is no situation in which an amateur needs RAW it's a waste of time and storage space to go on YouTube .

John.

Most stuff on YouTube is a waste of time and space

 

[Steelej]

I think your definition of amateur and mine are very different. As somebody who has been working professionally every day for 30 years, doing higher end work in mostly in smaller markets, I can tell you that a RAW workflow isn't part of most production budgets that I see. I think this is true for most broadcast and dramatic television as well. In professional environments RAW is used mostly in feature film and national commercials that have extensive grading requirements.

However, an advanced amateur...someone who does it "for love" and is truly interested in the best quality they can get out of these machines, or a young person just getting started in the business...they may have a lot of time on their hands to shoot and process RAW. The workflow isn't difficult, just time consuming -- it's actually a joy to anyone familiar with photoshop and ACR.

If you're not shooting RAW on the ground you don't need it in the air I stand by my statement of waste of time and storage if that's not the market you're shooting in.

John.

 

[Barry Goyette]

...so it sound's like we're in agreement....Most of the people I know shooting RAW Video on the ground, I would consider advanced amateurs, folks who thought a BlackMagic camera was a good deal, or young folks whose parents offered them or a Red or a BMW, and they decided to keep the Honda.

And for guys like me shooting 200-500Mb 4:2:2 and 444 XAVC codecs on our Canon and Sony cinema cameras, you realize that's not the same thing as an aliased 100Mb 4:2:0 H264, or a highly distorted ProRes file off the Inspire2, right? I don't need or want RAW video, but to have a file with the same relative quality as my "ground" camera, it's pretty much the only option (currently).

By your argument, all those 100% amateurs pointing their cameras at the sun and trying to pull detail out of the dirt on their Nikon's over at DPreview should really be shooting jpeg instead of raw. Frame for frame the storage differential is the same, and the market for their work is well...small.

Look...I get your point..you see RAW in the business terms you describe. Just trying to say that amateur photographer/videographers are often the ones using time and data consuming techniques, often to great effect. Look at Ian Cresswell as a classic example of a true amateur (he's an engineer by day I believe)...young enough to drop everything and head off to make some art with a loaner x5r and now an X5s. I wish him the best tools available because he has the energy and talent to use them regardless of whether he does it for a living or not.

 

[BrenC11]

Anything professional needs to be ProRes or higher. If i gave a h264 file to a client they would laugh at me. RAW is for features of high end commercials, or when the DP specifically requests it. I'd say £500 for ProRes is a bargain for what you are getting.

Even if you are shooting weddings, bah mitzvahs or real estate. Go ProRes. It actually edits better as its less compressed.

 

[AMGPilot]

Could somebody tell me how much the Prores upgrade is and is the image quality that much betterwhen considering the increase in storage needed? At present we can't afford it along with the SSD drives so will be using h264/5.. We are just looking at doing real estate, weddings, promotional ads and sports events so is it worth it for this type of videos?

Are you providing end to end services or are you delivering footage? if you are end to end you get to define the workflow and h264 might be fine for you and your client.

If you are delivering footage, you need to deliver in ProRes or Raw since the standard workflow in post is ProRes based

ProRes and RAW are MUCH more gradable. anyone who tells you that h264 is good enough doesn't know what they are talking about.

I keep seeing Barry Goyette posting about ProRes being "incorrectly" implemented and the absolute need for in camera lens correction. Well in the real world that's not correct. You want as little baked in as possible, you want to be able to make those changes in post. There is no need to waste processor power on in camera lens corrections.

 

[Barry Goyette]

--I keep seeing Barry Goyette posting about ProRes being "incorrectly" implemented and the absolute need for in camera lens correction. Well in the real world that's not correct. You want as little baked in as possible, you want to be able to make those changes in post. There is no need to waste processor power on in camera lens corrections.

Aw AMG....why you gotta go be like that. I don't remember ever using the word "incorrectly". I may have said incomplete. Which is true. The ProRes implementation on the Inspire 2 is incomplete -- doesn't include many of the frame rates, resolutions and aspect ratios the camera outputs. It doesn't provide for the lens corrections that are part of the Micro 4/3 system. It doesn't offer it's 4444 version in 12 bit. (if they are so correct...um, sorry.....complete...why would we hear (from DJI) that DJI is in the process of expanding the available options for ProRes..I mean why would they, if it's complete?)

As I've mentioned before, the last time we discussed this, the only place to apply lens corrections is to a raw image, and ideally an oversampled one -- whether that's in post, or whether that's during encoding (as Canon does with their Cinema Cameras, as DJI does with every camera in every codec except ProRes and every still camera made does when processing JPGs and video). Most importantly, for Micro 4/3 cameras and lenses which achieve their compactness through designs that involve "automatic" corrections because the distortions are large, complex,and impossible to correct accurately with available tools in video, any compressed output (h264, ProRes et al) should have Micro 4/3 profiles applied during encoding. We've had quite a discussion about it over at RCGroups. With samples. Correction of these lenses in ProRes, in post is time consuming, inaccurate, and destructive to the image. (We have confirmation from DJI that there is a technical limitation to the hardware, but that they are working on some sort of solution to provide corrections, in ProRes, from the camera).

I realize that you shoot an Alexa everyday. I don't know whether you shoot with an X5s. If you do, you know its not an Alexa, it's a Gh4-5, or something **** like it. Just like Panasonic and Olympus apply corrections automatically to their video and still files, so should the X5s.

(and DNxHD, MXF, Cineform and a number of other formats and wrappers, are all considered professional delivery formats, fwiw)

 

[VisionAir]

The one thing here that I notice that no one has mentioned is, the cost of shooting raw does not end with the purchase of the Licences AU$860 dollars for PRORES and AU$1700 for cinemaDNG or AU$2200 for both, then there is AU$256.00 for the card reader, AU$1599.00 for the 480gig card, and are you ready for this, in the highest quality 5.2k you will get only 15mins on the 480gig card, (YES every hour of 5.2k is approx 2 terabytes) and then it takes around 2 hours to transfer from card to computer, and then if you are also editing said footage you will need a lot of solid state storage and a kickass computer to handle all of this information. Just something to think about.

 

[ReesAerials]

Could somebody tell me how much the Prores upgrade is and is the image quality that much betterwhen considering the increase in storage needed? At present we can't afford it along with the SSD drives so will be using h264/5.. We are just looking at doing real estate, weddings, promotional ads and sports events so is it worth it for this type of videos?

Thanks

Wedding photography is an extremely cut thread business. Having RAW or ProRes files might be worth the add. For sporting events, I would guess that shooting 1080 at 100fps would give you more bang for your buck with a DLOG setting to manage color in post.

 

[VisionAir]

Wedding photography is an extremely cut thread business. Having RAW or ProRes files might be worth the add. For sporting events, I would guess that shooting 1080 at 100fps would give you more bang for your buck with a DLOG setting to manage color in post.

With regards to wedding photography & shooting RAW you don't need the Prores license as the X5S already shoots Raw in stills(DNG), just a thought.