NFZ or not...

[Kevin Hancox]

Hi guys, quick question for some of the more knowledgable commercial guys around...

I want to fly in a very particular area, Liquid Leisure 326 Horton Rd Ratchet Slough Windsor and Maidenhead SL3 9HY, UK

Google Maps

The flight would never be more than 30m, and i can't get a straight answer from the CAA they just refer back to the facts sheet...!!!

The area i understand is near heathrow, which i get but i work it out to be 5.6 miles from end of runway...!!! I also see that it still falls under the NFZ's

What would be my options for this area, i only want to film wake boarding... Haha

 

[pixl45]

@The Editor is likely your guy.

Google Maps shows it to be 3.5 miles by road... less as the crow flies.

 

[Kevin Hancox]

Kind of confusing, as the height for NFZ's are not always what they seem, like how DJI explain them, no fly completely in a certain distance then getting higher after a certain distance, but that is generic for everyone...

We are actually below the surrounding tree line with were we need to fly, and above water for a lake... I'm just not sure... Made a NATS application as time is of the essence, so guess that is all i can do right now...

 

[The Editor]

Kind of confusing, as the height for NFZ's are not always what they seem, like how DJI explain them, no fly completely in a certain distance then getting higher after a certain distance, but that is generic for everyone...

We are actually below the surrounding tree line with were we need to fly, and above water for a lake... I'm just not sure... Made a NATS application as time is of the essence, so guess that is all i can do right now...

That's because of the glide slope which means the further you are from the airport/runway the higher the aircraft will be on approach so the NFZ can be that much higher.
Looking at your location you could not get more in the flight path if you tried.
Looks to be a knats whisker over 3miles out from the West end of North Runway so 2.6 nautical miles out.
So assuming a 3 degree glide slope will put aircraft on approach at around 700-800ft at your intended flying location. (You can even see an aircraft on Google Earth for the location pin you marked).
That's not a lot of vertical separation especially if you were up at 400ft agl, however, the fact your are staying below the tree line should be fine.
Personally, I would not fly that location without talking to ATC and giving lat and long of your intended flight position. Then a courtesy call again once you had finished your flights and were back on deck.
The actual NFZ extends out to just the East side of the Bath Road roundabout so you should have no issues with starting up the motors etc.
Those planes will look awfully big where you intend to fly and of course there is a chance one of the pilots will spot the Inspire whilst coming into land - that will spark a knee jerk reaction and probably a visit from plod so I would definitely get all your phone calls in place first!

The location is doable though, with care and consideration.

 

[Kevin Hancox]

The location is doable though, with care and consideration.

Thank you, that actually makes sense, but we definitely won't be above treelike, it is a cable park so we fly 5 metres above cable which is about 15m...

Are you actually saying that we wouldn't need permission anyway...? I fully intend to follow your advice and stay in contact, and we will only be flying between 2-4pm for 6 days, competition days that is...

Thanks again for your help, it is extremely helpful...

 

[Kevin Hancox]

Just to finish this thread, i have had contact with a wonderful guy at the NATS department, he was very quick with his replies and additional questions, we do NOT need permission, but said it was extremely helpful that we had contacted them anyway, and that they will ensure a NOTAM is issued by the CAA for us, and we do not need to have any contact with the ATC, but he will ensure our contact information is included in the notification so they can still reach us if necessary.

All in all a very pleasant easy experience to get it sorted.

It also gives us peace of mind that if anyone did complain and the police attended for any reason, we have it in black and white with the coordinates and the reply that it is not breaking any laws...

@TheEditor Thanks for your help it was much appreciated, and is definitely something i would look to do again in the future so as to ensure staying legal.

 

[Kevin Hancox]

On a slightly different note, and nothing to do with DJI, but an opinion would be greatly received, i have been beta testing for a different company, they are already selling now, but we want to fly in the UK for something different...

We are NOT in a no fly zone, so no issues there, but the confusion over what is considered commercial work is getting the better of us...

I read this... From the CAA

Generation of self-marketing material to display an object, event or other activity. An individual or business would not usually be considered to be doing aerial work if the flight is provided only for their own use. Imagery generated in this way should not be sold to another party. Example: A charity, educational establishment, local authority or business acquires a drone which is used to provide aerial imagery for incorporation into their own promotional material. As long as this imagery is not sold on, this is unlikely to be deemed aerial work.

Example: A charity, educational establishment, local authority or business acquires a drone which is used to provide aerial imagery for incorporation into their own promotional material. As long as this imagery is not sold on, this is unlikely to be deemed aerial work.

So wondering how you interpret that, the video would be purely used for videos that are not used in anything other than promotional videos by themselves and not sold on, i read that this is allowable, they are filming themselves using a drone they make.

I can't seem to get a straight answer form anyone, and some people are saying it is commercial, and some are saying it isn't...

What is your interpretation of it...

Basically they want to film different sports with the drone, in different countries and areas. so it is filming an ACTIVITY incorporated into there own MARKETING.

 

[IrishSights]

On a slightly different note, and nothing to do with DJI, but an opinion would be greatly received, i have been beta testing for a different company, they are already selling now, but we want to fly in the UK for something different...

We are NOT in a no fly zone, so no issues there, but the confusion over what is considered commercial work is getting the better of us...

I read this... From the CAA

Generation of self-marketing material to display an object, event or other activity. An individual or business would not usually be considered to be doing aerial work if the flight is provided only for their own use. Imagery generated in this way should not be sold to another party. Example: A charity, educational establishment, local authority or business acquires a drone which is used to provide aerial imagery for incorporation into their own promotional material. As long as this imagery is not sold on, this is unlikely to be deemed aerial work.

Example: A charity, educational establishment, local authority or business acquires a drone which is used to provide aerial imagery for incorporation into their own promotional material. As long as this imagery is not sold on, this is unlikely to be deemed aerial work.

So wondering how you interpret that, the video would be purely used for videos that are not used in anything other than promotional videos by themselves and not sold on, i read that this is allowable, they are filming themselves using a drone they make.

I can't seem to get a straight answer form anyone, and some people are saying it is commercial, and some are saying it isn't...

What is your interpretation of it...

Basically they want to film different sports with the drone, in different countries and areas. so it is filming an ACTIVITY incorporated into there own MARKETING.

Is there a link to this CAA statement?


Holder of CAA PFAW
BNUS-S Certified Pilot

 

[Kevin Hancox]

It was emailed to me as a PDF, i have uploaded it to my online storage, so you can view/download from there...

My Cloud

Page 8 Section 11

 

[Kevin Hancox]

I can also forward the email if needed... Just very confusing as to what is deemed as "promotional material" and if this would apply... If it does, then permission is not needed, if it doesn't, then it clearly is, but the wording, as given says not...

 

[IrishSights]

Very interesting reading Kevin. I wonder why this is not made more public.


Holder of CAA PFAW
BNUS-S Certified Pilot

 

[Kevin Hancox]

How do you see what i commented on though...??? I asked and just got, refer to the fact sheet, and the fact sheet doesn't make it very clear... It is promotional material the company wants to film, but i see that as marketing, and as they own the drone, the drone is operated by them and the film is edited and put out by them then it is not commercial work...

 

[IrishSights]

How do you see what i commented on though...??? I asked and just got, refer to the fact sheet, and the fact sheet doesn't make it very clear... It is promotional material the company wants to film, but i see that as marketing, and as they own the drone, the drone is operated by them and the film is edited and put out by them then it is not commercial work...

Seems that is the case. However they don't have the easing of some of the rules that PFAW owners enjoy, which will limit their filming perspective.

 

[Kevin Hancox]

Seems that is the case. However they don't have the easing of some of the rules that PFAW owners enjoy, which will limit their filming perspective.

I understood that, but it is very specific what they need to do, film themselves while doing action sports, as a means to marketing the product they manufacture... Just wish i could get a straight answer...

 

[The Editor]

I understood that, but it is very specific what they need to do, film themselves while doing action sports, as a means to marketing the product they manufacture... Just wish i could get a straight answer...

Kevin, my understanding would be that if they (the company) were to go and buy a Drone and use it to film things that were purely for self promoting their business (but not offer aerial services to anyone else) then that would be fine.
If however, you were to film for them and receive 'valuable consideration' then they could obviously use the resultant footage on their site etc but YOU (or however did the work) would need to hold PFAW to be able to undertake the work for them.

 

[Kevin Hancox]

Kevin, my understanding would be that if they (the company) were to go and buy a Drone and use it to film things that were purely for self promoting their business (but not offer aerial services to anyone else) then that would be fine.
If however, you were to film for them and receive 'valuable consideration' then they could obviously use the resultant footage on their site etc but YOU (or however did the work) would need to hold PFAW to be able to undertake the work for them.

I fly beta for them already, in a non paid role, I would not be working for them. And most definitely not being paid if i did fly. It would be purely for there marketing.

Still trying to get clarification from the CAA again... But i trust your opinion to be as correct as it can be without being the CAA... Haha

 

[IrishSights]

The catch is that even a firm wanting to do their own filming could not get Aviation Insurance as all the companies are requiring a PFAW. General business PL insurance would not cover it.


Holder of CAA PFAW
BNUS-S Certified Pilot