X5 motion blur

[The Editor]

Yes.. you are right. 60i is interlaced so there shouldn't be any judder at all. 60P is best i think. Im in Pal land so we shoot 25P or 50P.

But you will lose circa 30% resolution shooting interlaced due to the Kell factor.

 

[slim.slamma]

I'm afraid this information is totally wrong and it's clear you do not have a basic understanding on how a video camera works.
The X5 DOES NOT shoot jpegs every second as you call it (or even 25 or 30 jpegs every second).
It uses an intra frame codec to record the difference information between changes in image at a set number of frames. (The interval being the i-frame v b or p-frame spacing) The X5 uses H264 compression algorithm contained in a .mov/mpeg4 wrapper/container.
This codec bases it's recording not on jpeg frames but on temporal difference values in pixel data between timebase frames. It is the difference that is compressed and recorded as data - not frames or jpegs. There are other things taken into account whilst compression is occuring like Inter Prediction where differing methods of predicting inter-coded macro blocks in the b or p slice compression data stream is utilised as well transformation and quantization applied to the 4x4 (luma as well as chroma blocks) sampling within the codec. There are no jpegs anywhere near this technology and they are not recorded as such.
The X5 is a poor consumer micro 4/3rds camera which DJI has made a hash of in an effort to get it out the door quickly.
It is so far removed from a 'real' or pro camera it would be embarrassing to put them in the same room together.
The X5 has no professional features on it whatsoever (other than possibly peaking and zebras which are even making it down to consumer offerings now) and it has a list of problems which DJI has yet to address.
The X5 gives no paint ability so a user is unable to alter the color matrix profiles to match between cameras or even get the **** colors to the correct points on a vectorscope!
It has an industry low standard woefully low bitrate of VBR 60mbps . Even 'toy' consumer handycams are shooting at 100mbps and beyond for less than a third of the price.
The X5 utilises a dynamic knee in its gamma curve! This is a fudge by DJI to make out the camera has a better dynamic range than it actually does. This is a trick that has been used to mask the poor quality of the camera.
It has no proper sharpening adjustments whereby both frequency and crispning can be adjusted in the horizontal and vertical axis.
There is no adjustment for iris tracking speed. Likewise there is no adjustment for WB tracking or offset.
There are currently (acknowledged) problems with sharpness (or lack of it) when using D-Log (which isn't true D-Log), ISO flicker caused by a badly constructed codec and intra frame pulsing.
I could go on but you get the idea! The X5 is an imaging device based on the micro 4/3rds system. It has been implemented badly and shows DJI's total lack of understanding, expertise or experience with cameras and is a million miles away from a professional piece of kit.
I have no idea what you have been shooting on for the last 30 years Brian but it has not been capturing jpegs in a continuous stream that's for sure! Even mature codecs like long GOP mpeg2 which has been used in the industry for years does not and never has recorded jpegs!

Class is in session!

 

[AndyD]

So I guess in summary, buy the I1+X3 (V2.0) and wait for next gen...I2?

 

[The Editor]

So I guess in summary, buy the I1+X3 (V2.0) and wait for next gen...I2?

Or wait and see how the X5R fairs but I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people out there.
The problem is, until DJI admit they know nothing about cameras and utilise the expertise of the likes of Sony or Panasonic, or any other video camera manufacturer who has been in the film/broadcast game for a while they will continue to pump out half baked attempts at cameras and then have to back peddle hard to fix their inadequacies.
I love the Inspire, it's a great multirotor but the imaging device hanging off the bottom is a case of "it is what it is" and we just have to make the most of it.

 

[gruvpix]

I just wish DJI would focus their R&D into areas that filmmakers and photographers actually care about vs. trying at all costs to get drones in the hands of every yokel with a thousand bucks. You can tell they have completely shelved all X5 related fixes/releases to focus everything on the Phantom 4... Which in and of itself is an underwhelming addition to the product line. Still no Osmo adaptor, still no fix for default sharpness, still no mention of X5R release... We haven't even had a FW update in three months. Obviously the company recognizes they can make more $$$ from releasing completely new products, but in the long term I think DJIs half baked releases and endless unfulfilled promises will catch up to them.

 

[gruvpix]

But you will lose circa 30% resolution shooting interlaced due to the Kell factor.

Plus interlaced looks 10x worse, especially when panning.

 

[DaveInspire]

I still think it's crazy people compare the x5 to x3 as if they are equivalent. It's not even possible to get the same shots due to fov and lens selection. It's a lot harder to make a flight controller than a camera. Look at the relative fortunes of GoPro and Dji (when they "split" Dji started making cameras and GoPro started making drones. I think the x5r will be great and putting the heavy lifting into post is a very good thing.

 

[pixl45]

Or wait and see how the X5R fairs but I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people out there.
The problem is, until DJI admit they know nothing about cameras and utilise the expertise of the likes of Sony or Panasonic, or any other video camera manufacturer who has been in the film/broadcast game for a while they will continue to pump out half baked attempts at cameras and then have to back peddle hard to fix their inadequacies.
I love the Inspire, it's a great multirotor but the imaging device hanging off the bottom is a case of "it is what it is" and we just have to make the most of it.

Fortunately, I'm not a videographer. I bought it for still photography, be it artistic or industrial, and it seems to do well at that. And a reasonable option when seeking something to shoot 50-90mm. Considering the alternatives of hanging a 5d III from an octocopter and an expensive gimbal, I'm pretty happy with the choice.

 

[Khyber]

x5 smokes my gh4 I was using on a phantom so I ain't complaining.

 

[DennisR]

Dennis I'm sorry but I have to correct you on this. I am afraid this information is totally wrong and shows a lack of basic understanding on how a video camera works.
The X5 DOES NOT shoot jpegs every second as you call it (or even 25 or 30 jpegs every second).
It uses an intra frame codec to record the difference information between changes in image at a set number of frames. (The interval being the i-frame v b or p-frame spacing) The X5 uses H264 compression algorithm contained in a .mov/mpeg4 wrapper/container.
This codec bases it's recording not on jpeg frames but on temporal difference values in pixel data between timebase frames. It is the difference that is compressed and recorded as data - not frames or jpegs. There are other things taken into account whilst compression is occuring like Inter Prediction where differing methods of predicting inter-coded macro blocks in the b or p slice compression data stream is utilised as well transformation and quantization applied to the 4x4 (luma as well as chroma blocks) sampling within the codec. There are no jpegs anywhere near this technology and they are not recorded as such.
The X5 is a poor consumer micro 4/3rds camera which DJI has made a hash of in an effort to get it out the door quickly.
It is so far removed from a 'real' or pro camera it would be embarrassing to put them in the same room together.
The X5 has no professional features on it whatsoever (other than possibly peaking and zebras which are even making it down to consumer offerings now) and it has a list of problems which DJI has yet to address.
The X5 gives no paint ability so a user is unable to alter the color matrix profiles to match between cameras or even get the **** colors to the correct points on a vectorscope!
It has an industry low standard woefully low bitrate of VBR 60mbps . Even 'toy' consumer handycams are shooting at 100mbps and beyond for less than a third of the price.
The X5 utilises a dynamic knee in its gamma curve! This is a fudge by DJI to make out the camera has a better dynamic range than it actually does. This is a trick that has been used to try and push the DR but it doesn't work well at all and could be argued is a marketing ploy to advertise the X5 as being better than it actually is.
It has no proper sharpening adjustments whereby both frequency and crispning can be adjusted in the horizontal and vertical axis.
There is no adjustment for iris tracking speed. Likewise there is no adjustment for WB tracking or offset.
There are currently (acknowledged) problems with sharpness (or lack of it) when using D-Log (which isn't true D-Log), ISO flicker caused by a badly constructed codec and intra frame pulsing.
I could go on but you get the idea! The X5 is an imaging device based on the micro 4/3rds system. It has been implemented badly and shows DJI's total lack of understanding, expertise or experience with cameras and is a million miles away from a professional piece of kit.
I have no idea what you have been shooting on for the last 30 years Brian but it has not been capturing jpegs in a continuous stream that's for sure! Even mature codecs like long GOP mpeg2 which has been used in the industry for years does not and never has recorded jpegs!

I stand corrected about the X5 cam but I was more about how progressive works on a pro camera. I shoot the X5 as I do all progressive cameras so thought that was the cause of his judder problems.
It stands to reason that a pro camera costs 15k upwards so we cant expect too much from the X5.

 

[DennisR]

But you will lose circa 30% resolution shooting interlaced due to the Kell factor.

Yes, of course but thats to do with all interlaced cameras.

 

[Jacky Poon]

The X5 shoots in progressive mode which means it shoots jpegs every second. Any sideways movement will create "judder" if the frame rate is not high enough. Most consumer cameras shoot interlaced so judder is avoided. What you are noticing is the effect of working with a camera that works like a film camera so you have to learn to shoot like a film camera. You will get awful judder on pans if you use 24 frames a second. Have a read on progressive shooting and it will be clear to you.

I used the term "jpegs" just to enhance the point I was trying to make. I dont get into the technicalities about how a camera works but i have been shooting tv commercials for 18 years with top quality cameras. I know how to use one but have no idea what electronics are used. The cams I have used are i-frame every frame.
I was just trying to help him understand that its not so much his camera that is blurring, but the way he uses it. At the end of the day, I was trying to be helpful but all i get is kicked in the guts by this forum. Ill check out now. Its not for me. Ill get back to making money with my work and leave the comments to you guys. I can show anyone in an hour how to shoot progressive. The workings of a camera have no interest to me. I just buy them for my work. My next one is a Black Magic "Ursa" No doubt someone will post that its no good but it will earn me a lot of money and thats all I care about. Its the cost of doing business.

Dude... Chill out mate... We all now know you make lots of money shooting commercials for many years, and you are not interested in the technical side of things that's all fine with everyone I am sure... But it neither makes you sound professional or care about what you do for a living.

You know, many people visit forums trying to learn new techniques and improve their understanding in complex matters. If you have no real understanding or simply never bothered to look into the subject you are replying to, please don't make bold statement or giving out misleading information. I have had such experience and had to jump through many hoops before learning the actual facts and that's a really painful process!
Thank you for your understanding.

 

[The Editor]

Of course I have an understanding how a camera works. I use one to make a living. I give up. Pick on someone else. I play a bass guitar and sing as well in a rock band. Have done so for 26 years and have 2 songs on iTunes at the moment. In fact I played to 450 people last night at a concert and it went very well. I play with a Musicman bass and I play well but I have never taken the pickups out and opened them to see how they work. I couldn't care less. I just play. same thing.
As I said... time to pick on someone else. Not professional you say??? Im the one making money. I must be doing something right. go figure!

Dennis - nobody is 'picking' on you. You seem to have a very touchy response if anyone dares criticise you or corrects you.
If somebody knows more about a subject than you, accept it, learn from other folks and be gracious.
I believe the reason people are getting fed up with some of your comments is everytime anyone makes a statement or posts on here you appear to jump on the thread and either say that it wouldn't be allowed in Australia or you are going to report them to the FAA etc. Alternatively, you constantly tell people you have been making TV commercials for 20 years and then go on to say how much money you make!
I know from the reports I have been receiving this is what other members are growing tired of.
I am sorry if that has struck a nerve and I am happy to continue this conversation via PM but please, please chill out a little and listen to other peoples views and comments.
Nobody is "out to get you" or "picking" on you, this is an community of vastly differing demographic literally reaching all corners of the world so please listen to other people who may have a better understanding of things or more experience than you.
Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Luis Morales]

so not to be picky but @The Editor have trolled this thread like a master (from blur to dji sucks and the x5 not worth it )

 

[The Editor]

so not to be picky but @The Editor have trolled this thread like a master (from blur to dji sucks and the x5 not worth it )

What can I say?......you got me!
< Disappears back into my cave with shame.... >

 

[The Editor]

I get touchy because there are a lot of idiots here that have no experience of production at all. I have learnt a lot from this site but I have also learnt that people don't like anyone more successful than them. The reason and the only reason I tell people I have been producing commercials for 20 years is because they have a go at me and tell me I know nothing. If anyone can earn more than me in the business then thats fine. I wish them all the best , but I don't like it when someone comes and calls me "Dude" when they earn SFA and have a go at me. You had a go at me about not knowing how to use a camera? Are you kidding? If they want to do this job for fun then great.. but I dont. I do it for a living. I am not a "Dude" or "mate" as the low class say in this country. I smashed my drone into a wall last week and most would think its funny. Some said I had the money to buy another one. I have ordered another one and a black one this time.I have never got off with someone smashing their drone. I was trying to help a few people here to pay back the people who have helped me with many things. I was trying to give an example of how progressive shooting works. After all, he doesn't know. I'm sure the way I explained it makes more sense to him than all the technical jargon you used. I want him to understand that there is nothing wrong with his camera and that he just needs to read up on progressive shooting. Anyway ,.. I dont care anymore. this makes me too upset. Pick on some other poor bastard making 30k plus a month editing from home in their jox and t -shirt. Im lucky no one there can see the car I drive... God.. they would hate me a lot more.

Unfortunately, you have just cemented everyone's opinion by writing your last post.

 

[andrew259]

Unfortunately, you have just cemented everyone's opinion by writing your last post.

I have to agree... I enjoy these posts/interactions from a schadenfreude perspective....!

I tend to believe that if you are the best - you don't have to tell everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ianwood]

Enjoying the badass talk about who has the biggest gonads. But I'm confused about why the term progressive is even being discussed. Is it 1995?

And not to be pedantic but the imager does take whole frames. It passes them to the SOC that then employs a compression algorithm (e.g. H.264) that throws a lot that away through clever dark magic creating a mix of full and differential frames so that it can all get written to storage. I won't pretend to know all the details.

How that is relevant to motion blur, I am not particularly sure. I think posts about frame rate, temporal motion, double or higher shutter speeds and the 7 second rules are far more informative to the original question.

 

[pixl45]

Enjoying the badass talk about who has the biggest gonads. But I'm confused about why the term progressive is even being discussed. Is it 1995?

And not to be pedantic but the imager does take whole frames. It passes them to the SOC that then employs a compression algorithm (e.g. H.264) that throws a lot that away through clever dark magic creating a mix of full and differential frames so that it can all get written to storage. I won't pretend to know all the details.

How that is relevant to motion blur, I am not particularly sure. I think posts about frame rate, temporal motion, double or higher shutter speeds and the 7 second rules are far more informative to the original question.

Just checked out your work -- nice stuff.

 

[NIDroneGuy]

@DennisR I know it's tough to internalise criticism and turn it into something positive. Simply put, if you think every thread you're part of turns against you then maybe there is cause to look at yourself and not consider everyone here to blame. 99% of us are hobbyists or professionals like you and all manage to get on.

No need for name calling.

I do wish you the best.

P.S - I have a job.