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X5 only 60mbps is this a big issue?
- Thread starter tdwragg
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je ne suis pas coloriste non plus, mais illustrateur. J'ai une expérience dans le domaine de l'application des couleurs.Mais...
Combien de passionné en vidéo "volante ou pas volante" ont la chaîne complète "étalonnée" caméra, écran PC , écran TV etc...les couleurs c'est aussi ...comme on aime et comme on imagine.
En fait... personne n'oblige personne à acheter une X5...
google translate
I'm not colourist either, but illustrator. I have experience in the application of color. More ...
How many video enthusiast "flying or not flying" have the complete chain "calibrated" camera, computer screen, TV screen etc ... the colors is also ... as we like and as we imagine.
Actually ... no one forces a person to buy X5 ...
Combien de passionné en vidéo "volante ou pas volante" ont la chaîne complète "étalonnée" caméra, écran PC , écran TV etc...les couleurs c'est aussi ...comme on aime et comme on imagine.
En fait... personne n'oblige personne à acheter une X5...
google translate
I'm not colourist either, but illustrator. I have experience in the application of color. More ...
How many video enthusiast "flying or not flying" have the complete chain "calibrated" camera, computer screen, TV screen etc ... the colors is also ... as we like and as we imagine.
Actually ... no one forces a person to buy X5 ...
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Nick is clearly not a colorist
Hiya. I'm interested in your reply and was hoping you can expand on your comment. Thanks.
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Well, I would hope that if anyone is a pro photographer or cameraman then they will automatically understand the concept of profiles and monitor calibration. If not, then they are clearly not a pro!
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Actually, you make a very valid point. I have not done a job yet where the client hasn't asked what camera we shoot on. There is an old saying... ' a little knowledge can be a bad thing' and in my experience, no more so than when dealing with ad agencies or PR companies!
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Well, understand that it's not an insult or anything. I will preface this by saying that most movies today and commercials and a bit of TV all use GoPro cameras. So we see this highly compressed 8 bit colorspace footage and after they correct barrel distortion ( if they bother), no one knows...
My wife is a colorist and as such has taught me a lot about what she does. Not that I could do it as she can see color better than I can. Nick comments that the footage right out of the camera can look incredible and we can all attest to that. Moreover, most folks using a UAV are hobbyists that will never have to do look matching and heavy grading tasks.
That being said, the 8 bit footage falls apart very quickly in post as you grade it. This typically manifests itself as banding in gradients and eventually a splotchy look to the colors.
Is any of that important for 99% of the users of drones? Nope. The footage that hobbyists generate for personal use need never even be graded.
At the end of the day, the answer is simple: Use the right tool for the job.
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It depends on what tools you use, and how you go about manipulating it. As a director of photography, my job is to shoot the footage as close to what it is supposed to look like as possible. The less you mess with the image the less all of those things become a problem. I shot something like 20 hours of television on the Panasonic Varicam which was a miracle at the time. It cost $60k and recorded 720p in 4:2:2 8 bit. I got nominated for a national Emmy for one of those shows. The colorist was able to grade it just fine thanks very much.
I'm not saying that the x5 is the best camera ever. I'm not even saying that you should be happy with it. All I'm saying is that I'm happy with it.(EDITED FOR LANGUAGE) it's a $2k dollar camera. That's practically disposable.
I'm not even really arguing a point. I'm just saying, as a guy who points really expensive cameras at (AGAIN) for a living, and have been doing it for 25 years, I know a thing or two about cameras and what you can get away with and what you can't and I am personally looking forward to this one as I think it is going to allow me to do a better job.
That said, I challenge B-Scene to a dance off at high noon. Winner take all............
I'm not saying that the x5 is the best camera ever. I'm not even saying that you should be happy with it. All I'm saying is that I'm happy with it.(EDITED FOR LANGUAGE) it's a $2k dollar camera. That's practically disposable.
I'm not even really arguing a point. I'm just saying, as a guy who points really expensive cameras at (AGAIN) for a living, and have been doing it for 25 years, I know a thing or two about cameras and what you can get away with and what you can't and I am personally looking forward to this one as I think it is going to allow me to do a better job.
That said, I challenge B-Scene to a dance off at high noon. Winner take all............
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I fear I will have to send the wife in as my proxy as I cannot dance my way out of a wet paper bag
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I'm new to this forum, but already starting to like the banter!
I don't mean to crap on this camera. I really want it to be great. I'll be first in line to get it. I'm seriously hoping this is a glitch and DJI comes back with none of this washed out muddiness / compression. But if this is as good as it gets:
I don't think I would use that for hobby work! Parts of the shots are OK, some more than OK. There is some good motion blur that looks like it's benefiting from the better glass. But where's the latitude? Why is there no detail in the dark areas? It's all squashed. A big sea of dull yuckiness.
Plan B is the Dutch guys with the RX100 gimbal. Praying they make that work. I wish DJI would do more gimbal only solutions.
I don't think I would use that for hobby work! Parts of the shots are OK, some more than OK. There is some good motion blur that looks like it's benefiting from the better glass. But where's the latitude? Why is there no detail in the dark areas? It's all squashed. A big sea of dull yuckiness.
Plan B is the Dutch guys with the RX100 gimbal. Praying they make that work. I wish DJI would do more gimbal only solutions.
To be honest this thread has been one of the best I've seen since joining a few months back. It's awesome to see the hobbyist/pro and those somewhere in between debate from each of their perspectives. So...thanks for info and entertainment!
PS @ianwood didn't you shoot the Los Angeles piece on a P3P? Umm that was killer and I doubt anyone pixel peeped it. Also that Eric Owen Moss building in your edit isn't Samitaur. That's the Stealth.
PS @ianwood didn't you shoot the Los Angeles piece on a P3P? Umm that was killer and I doubt anyone pixel peeped it. Also that Eric Owen Moss building in your edit isn't Samitaur. That's the Stealth.
I don't mean to crap on this camera. I really want it to be great. I'll be first in line to get it. I'm seriously hoping this is a glitch and DJI comes back with none of this washed out muddiness / compression. But if this is as good as it gets:
I don't think I would use that for hobby work! Parts of the shots are OK, some more than OK. There is some good motion blur that looks like it's benefiting from the better glass. But where's the latitude? Why is there no detail in the dark areas? It's all squashed. A big sea of dull yuckiness.
Plan B is the Dutch guys with the RX100 gimbal. Praying they make that work. I wish DJI would do more gimbal only solutions.
The ground shots look pretty good. Prob GH4?
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I don't mean to crap on this camera. I really want it to be great. I'll be first in line to get it. I'm seriously hoping this is a glitch and DJI comes back with none of this washed out muddiness / compression. But if this is as good as it gets:
I don't think I would use that for hobby work! Parts of the shots are OK, some more than OK. There is some good motion blur that looks like it's benefiting from the better glass. But where's the latitude? Why is there no detail in the dark areas? It's all squashed. A big sea of dull yuckiness.
Plan B is the Dutch guys with the RX100 gimbal. Praying they make that work. I wish DJI would do more gimbal only solutions.
I never judge camera capability based on web videos like that. We have no way to know what processing the original raw data was subjected to prior to being massively compressed for Youtube streaming. If you are unaccustomed to a raw workflow, your results will reflect that fact.
The only way to truly judge it is to get the original unmodified camera files and look at them and judge from there.
Agreed. That's why it's an especially good clip to look at.
PS @ianwood didn't you shoot the Los Angeles piece on a P3P? Umm that was killer and I doubt anyone pixel peeped it. Also that Eric Owen Moss building in your edit isn't Samitaur. That's the Stealth.
Thanks man. It was a P2 with a GoPro Hero 4 black. And I totally agree. No one peeped it but many have fallen out of their chair when I told them what is was shot on.
My interest in the X5(R) is for stepping up to 4K and getting a better overall image quality. Considering a number of options but an RTF solution like Inspire + X5(R) would be very compelling. But, if the quality isn't there I will go the hard way.
As for the Sammy building as I like to call it, I sometimes work out of it. Unusual place.
You see the best thing since sliced bread. I don't. Not even close. And I'm not the only one. Frankly, I don't see how you can't. And Youtube doesn't crush latitude.
This isn't a very valid test because not all compressors are the same. The Sony ones are incredibly good. They have years of expertise making compressors and they have it down to a fine art. In other words 60Mbps from a Sony compressor will often be much, much better than 60Mbps from a company such as DJI. Often times Sony are using variable bitrate compression too.
This test is also invalid because no grading has taken place, nor have you accounted for the many issues with the X3 such as the "jumping" effect on subtle shading such as cloud shadows. You do not need to pixel peep to spot such problems.
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It's tough, you are right the footage doesn't look great. They are also shooting straight into the sun for the majority of shots too though... I know everyone loves a lens flare but some better lighting conditions would reveal a lot more. The sky just looks blown out and the horizon hazy on most of those shots, and the ones in the forest with the girl are artifacting a lot but not sure if that's mostly YouTube or not...
Bah who knows... Our X5 (not R) is now on order. Hopefully it will be worth the $$$
Here's a copy of what I wrote over on DJI's forums. Just my thoughts.
The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture in lower light. The problems from there are numerous. The image is then compressed down to 60mbps which causes artifacting just like the x3. Which means that I'm going to limit myself to more properly lit situations. The next problem is the color space with 8bit 4:2:0. Giving little latitude for trying to correct/edit the picture out in post.
DJI... if you're listening to your customers here's what your use cases are:
X3: Web, Support, 2nd cam, non-broadcast industry
- This is web only export. Usually used as a camera for real-estate, industrial, government, and small private industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5 1st camera low-end production environment.
- In this environment where the image can be sized down and where color editing needs to be less precise and client expectations are much lower the compression can be greater and chroma sub sampling can be very large.
- 4k, 60mbps, 4:2:0
X5: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, semi-broadcast
This is web primarily, semi-broadcast capable. Usually used for storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5r 1st camera mid-level production environment.
- In this environment where the image often needs to meet higher levels of quality but some minor artifacting can be acceptable less compression is needed and less chroma sub sampling is desired, but limited by the sd card.
- 4k, 100mbps, 4:2:2
X5r: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, broadcast
This is web or broadcast ready. Primarily used for cinema/tv/web in storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera in a multi-rotor high-level production environment.
Finally in this environment where the highest qualities must be met the compression needs to be minimal to non-existant and there needs to be no chroma sub sampling. Resulting in imagery that is limited only by the camera and lens.
- 4k, 1.6gbps, 4:4:4
These are your client groups DJI. By creating the X5 as it is currently it rests in a strange no-mans land where you have a nicer camera but poor compression and mediocre chroma sub sampling. As we can see by using the same camera being used in the X5r we simply need an updated codec for the X5 to be in the right price range.
The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture in lower light. The problems from there are numerous. The image is then compressed down to 60mbps which causes artifacting just like the x3. Which means that I'm going to limit myself to more properly lit situations. The next problem is the color space with 8bit 4:2:0. Giving little latitude for trying to correct/edit the picture out in post.
DJI... if you're listening to your customers here's what your use cases are:
X3: Web, Support, 2nd cam, non-broadcast industry
- This is web only export. Usually used as a camera for real-estate, industrial, government, and small private industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5 1st camera low-end production environment.
- In this environment where the image can be sized down and where color editing needs to be less precise and client expectations are much lower the compression can be greater and chroma sub sampling can be very large.
- 4k, 60mbps, 4:2:0
X5: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, semi-broadcast
This is web primarily, semi-broadcast capable. Usually used for storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5r 1st camera mid-level production environment.
- In this environment where the image often needs to meet higher levels of quality but some minor artifacting can be acceptable less compression is needed and less chroma sub sampling is desired, but limited by the sd card.
- 4k, 100mbps, 4:2:2
X5r: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, broadcast
This is web or broadcast ready. Primarily used for cinema/tv/web in storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera in a multi-rotor high-level production environment.
Finally in this environment where the highest qualities must be met the compression needs to be minimal to non-existant and there needs to be no chroma sub sampling. Resulting in imagery that is limited only by the camera and lens.
- 4k, 1.6gbps, 4:4:4
These are your client groups DJI. By creating the X5 as it is currently it rests in a strange no-mans land where you have a nicer camera but poor compression and mediocre chroma sub sampling. As we can see by using the same camera being used in the X5r we simply need an updated codec for the X5 to be in the right price range.
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