Air space and city ordinance.

[Hotshots]

Can a community or a city establish them selfs as a community that does not allow UAS flight. I had a request from a customer to do a cell tower inspection. The cell tower was located in South Jordan Utah. A housing development in South Jordan Utah has stated they do not allow UAS in that community. I don't think they understand the commercial side of this. Can a community or development restrict otherwise legal flight from a commercial 107 licensed pilot? I don't think they have the authority to do this. In every other respect airspace, airports, it's legal to fly. Does anyone know where I can get the documentation to show such a community that a commercial pilot would retain the right to fly?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Florida Drone Supply]

Can a community or a city establish them selfs as a community that does not allow UAS flight. I had a request from a customer to do a cell tower inspection. The cell tower was located in South Jordan Utah. A housing development in South Jordan Utah has stated they do not allow UAS in that community. I don't think they understand the commercial side of this. Can a community or development restrict otherwise legal flight from a commercial 107 licensed pilot? I don't think they have the authority to do this. In every other respect airspace, airports, it's legal to fly. Does anyone know where I can get the documentation to show such a community that a commercial pilot would retain the right to fly?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The housing development can restrict you from taking off or landing on their property, they do not control the airspace. Can you fly from another area and still keep a visual on your aircraft while doing the inspection? The cell tower operator may also have some easements allowing you to take off in the towers area. Looks like you will have to do some more research.

 

[Hotshots]

you're right about the research. And the answer to your question is no I need to be next to the cell tower as I'm flying around it. Thanks for your input.

 

[Casey53]

Tough to call. Is it a community falling under HOA covenants and restrictions? If so, there could be an issue if you fly off their land much like some city ordiance banning RC aircraft, drones, cars, etc. Might be able to fly in from outside the association though.

I live in a HOA and they have all sorts of rules. I won't fly my drone here as I know the board members will ban them in some new CC&R as I almost got booted out for motorcycle ownership and noise issues caused by someone else's bike.

There are "Private Road" entry signs here and Google Earth's mapping car will not enter here either, although it could drive in easily and get a Street View photo. Google must be afraid of whatever rules or laws the association has drummed up to affect keeping it out as well. Look at the tower in Google Earth and see if the streets around it offer a Street View which might mean it isn't a private HOA community.

Your best avenue would be to talk to a local lawyer about the legality before you fly there. Maybe the police and local film commissioner too. If they want permits to fly commercially, then you might have to pay a lot to get one and then you'd keep the dogs of hell at bay - so to speak.

 

[Hotshots]

That sounds about right. I appreciate your input this is a very Gray area that I am going to research. Thanks again

 

[William Gaddy]

Usually this boils down to the lease agreement. Most cell towers are on property under a long term (like 30 year) leasehold agreement. In the lease agreement is generally what is prohibited and permitted, talk to the general counsel of the operator/lessor of the cell tower. There's usually a legal way to give the middle finger to the HOA about this.

 

[Dguillot]

Can a community or a city establish them selfs as a community that does not allow UAS flight. I had a request from a customer to do a cell tower inspection. The cell tower was located in South Jordan Utah. A housing development in South Jordan Utah has stated they do not allow UAS in that community. I don't think they understand the commercial side of this. Can a community or development restrict otherwise legal flight from a commercial 107 licensed pilot? I don't think they have the authority to do this. In every other respect airspace, airports, it's legal to fly. Does anyone know where I can get the documentation to show such a community that a commercial pilot would retain the right to fly?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The answer to that question is multipart. The way to determine is by looking at privacy laws for the state and the local municipality. The home owners association in most cases do not have jurisdiction over nonmembers if you are working outside their boundaries. For example in the state of Texas the privacy laws of the state govern the ability to take pictures of a persons private property without consent. Above 400 feet is considered satellite space and is not regulated by the state of Texas, this is only in relations to taking pictures or video. If you are not taking by pictures or video there is no restrictions from a state privacy statute Now the 107 certificate means you understand not to put others in danger , so that is the only hurdle, if people or below and in danger from your craft falling out of sky. HOA are governed by state law in Texas. So if you have permission from the tower owner to take such photos of their property you are covered, since they are the owners of the tower. Another thing you can do is fly in above 400 feet, below 500 feet to the tower. Keep the camera aimed at the tower in orbit mode and descend as needed etc. once completed ascend to 400 feet. Also do not record until you reach destination of the tower and enable orbit. Key is to get permission in writing from the tower owner; do not start recording until you reach destination, privacy laws cover film recording not flying a drone; if you want to record do so at 400 feet or above max 500; and be willing to show that you have not recorded over private property below the designated limits. This example is for state of Texas. I recommend you look at the states statutes you are flying.

The idea is that with the states they are dealing with privacy laws. If there is a no fly area listed by the state or FAA then you will need special permission per the 107 certification guideline.

Most importantly be reapectful in tone, but also do not let any group step outside of their boundaries, be willing to fight if it is worth it to you and your business.

Best Regards,

Donald Guillot
Virtual Eye Drone Service
713-397-6800 mobile

 

[Dguillot]

Further information on Utah state law in reference to unmanned aircraft, it is an easy read and posted two months ago. This is rupperts site and this guy is good attorney, I would recommend you join his service. As a note I do not make any money if this referral and in no way associated with his firm.

Utah Drone Laws (2017) -

Donald Guillot
Virtual Eye Drone Services, Inc
713-397-6800 mobile

 

[sturgisphoto]

Get an orange cone, park near the cell tower, place the cone near your vehicle, put a SURVEY CREW sign in your window. Fly your mission. Problem solved! Who interferes with a survey crew?

I'm only kidding, but this would probably work nearly every time.

 

[Hotshots]

Thank you very much for the input.

 

[Deleted member 37921]

The cone idea is best, and here's why. An HOA has no legal authority to enforce any action on a person outside of it's members and/or off common property. Even then it's expensive and problematic to penalize, enforce and especially to collect fines. Do waste a dime proving you're in the "right".

If you're legal to operate and licensed insurerd etc.. Wait to be challenged. Then on a letter head send a certified letter) and inform them of their error and that they are falsely interfering with your ability conduct commerce. Then add a line that says they are unaware of the current state of the industry and federal laws that suoerceed any HOA rule in their CC&R's. Then, direct them to consult with council. This is very important, once a claim is made it is on them to provide proof that they have jurisdiction. It costs the HOA $ to have council make a determination, but any board member who goes against council can be personally held liable (most every state). If the board opts NOT to seek clarification through council, they as a whole are liable for damages. So basically your setting the chess board to establish they are not within their right to prevent you from conduction commerce and that any interference from them is subject to lawsuit.

Additionally I'd remind them that anytime your operations are being conducted, any attempt to disrupt and interfere with a flight crew in the performance of their duties is a violation of the Code of Federal Regulations and will be immediately reported to the FSDO.

Just my opinion, I've been HOA president for two different communities, two different states, and felt with a lot of BS. Avaoid defending yourself and be in the offensive. Most board members don't know $h*t and are easily pushed back. The more you Seem to know, the more likely they will craw back into their hole, and go back to inspecting lawn ornaments and mail boxes.

 

[droneondemand]

Can a community or a city establish them selfs as a community that does not allow UAS flight. I had a request from a customer to do a cell tower inspection. The cell tower was located in South Jordan Utah. A housing development in South Jordan Utah has stated they do not allow UAS in that community. I don't think they understand the commercial side of this. Can a community or development restrict otherwise legal flight from a commercial 107 licensed pilot? I don't think they have the authority to do this. In every other respect airspace, airports, it's legal to fly. Does anyone know where I can get the documentation to show such a community that a commercial pilot would retain the right to fly?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I was flying a real estate job here a in an adjacent city named Mission Hills, KS. While we were flying/filming a car stops on the road and backs up to approach me. A woman rolls the window down and tells me "Hi, I'm a city councilwoman here in Mission Hills and we have a "no drone" policy here in the city limits, if you don't land I'll have to contact tge police". I explained to her that I was a commercial 107 pilot/company assigned a job from an agent and with permission from the homeowner to be filming. She replied "well that does not matter, we have a no drone policy we established last summer, you need to stop."
I took the high road and thanked her for the info, we landed. I told the homeowner/agent about the exchange and packed up and went home...with the new mission of looking this up.
Sure enough, I found the article in the Kansas City paper about Mission Hills being the first city to establish a "no drone" policy to prevent flyovers of private residences.
They also provided a link to the actual legislation. But when I looked it over, I found a clause at the bottom of the document that said "this legislation shall not prevent or hinder any authorized FAA operations". The legislation was really targeted at hobbyists who were using their drones to fly around the neighborhood for fun and over their neighbors properties.
I took the time to compose an email to the entire counsel that recalled the encounter (not naming names...Beverly) and that I lost $ on a job because of this rule. I pointed out that the aforementioned clause (as I understood it), allowed me to operate my business as usual and I had every right to fly/film as a 107/333 commercial company,
I also took the opportunity to let them know if they needed a licensed, insured sUAS company, we would be happy to be their provider...
The next day, the councilmen that drafted the legislation (we also was a lawyer) called me. He informed me that I was correct. In no way can they prevent legal, licensed companies from doing business in their city and the clause was indeed aimed at citizens within their city limits flying for hobby over properties without permission. He also asked me to join him for future presentations and it's turned into a paying / educational opportunity.
"So much confusion is there" (in Yoda voice)
with these blanket "no drone zone" press releases. So much so that even the issuing entities don't entirely understand it.
Moral of the story is, read the fine print on their policy. It may be a similar situation to this one...

 

[Casey53]

I don't know why the Google Earth street mapping car won't enter our HOA. Must be some legal reason Google won't do it. Private road signs posted perhaps?

I know one could thwart a drone flying commerically by asking if they acquired a commercial filming permit from the local film commissioner's office to do so. Likely they never do as it costs money, and takes time to get one processed too, so that would be their violation.

 

[Casey53]

I was flying a real estate job here a in an adjacent city named Mission Hills, KS. While we were flying/filming a car stops on the road and backs up to approach me. A woman rolls the window down and tells me "Hi, I'm a city councilwoman here in Mission Hills and we have a "no drone" policy here in the city limits, if you don't land I'll have to contact tge police". I explained to her that I was a commercial 107 pilot/company assigned a job from an agent and with permission from the homeowner to be filming. She replied "well that does not matter, we have a no drone policy we established last summer, you need to stop."
I took the high road and thanked her for the info, we landed. I told the homeowner/agent about the exchange and packed up and went home...with the new mission of looking this up.
Sure enough, I found the article in the Kansas City paper about Mission Hills being the first city to establish a "no drone" policy to prevent flyovers of private residences.
They also provided a link to the actual legislation. But when I looked it over, I found a clause at the bottom of the document that said "this legislation shall not prevent or hinder any authorized FAA operations". The legislation was really targeted at hobbyists who were using their drones to fly around the neighborhood for fun and over their neighbors properties.
I took the time to compose an email to the entire counsel that recalled the encounter (not naming names...Beverly) and that I lost $ on a job because of this rule. I pointed out that the aforementioned clause (as I understood it), allowed me to operate my business as usual and I had every right to fly/film as a 107/333 commercial company,
I also took the opportunity to let them know if they needed a licensed, insured sUAS company, we would be happy to be their provider...
The next day, the councilmen that drafted the legislation (we also was a lawyer) called me. He informed me that I was correct. In no way can they prevent legal, licensed companies from doing business in their city and the clause was indeed aimed at citizens within their city limits flying for hobby over properties without permission. He also asked me to join him for future presentations and it's turned into a paying / educational opportunity.
"So much confusion is there" (in Yoda voice)
with these blanket "no drone zone" press releases. So much so that even the issuing entities don't entirely understand it.
Moral of the story is, read the fine print on their policy. It may be a similar situation to this one...

That "permissions" part is probably what got you off the hook.

San Clemente, CA has the same issue with drones and put into their anti-drone ordinance that you need to have a signed permission release on your person from every property owner you fly over to curtail flying around there. It came about with the Orange County Grand Jury over the trespassing/privacy matter. FAA seems to stay clear of the trespassing thing without permission, but I don't want to pay to find out.

 

[enzyox]

I show up in my work truck with blinky orange lights, an abundance of orange cones, hard hats, radios and safety signage. Never had a problem.

 

[Donnie Frank]

The housing development can restrict you from taking off or landing on their property, they do not control the airspace. Can you fly from another area and still keep a visual on your aircraft while doing the inspection? The cell tower operator may also have some easements allowing you to take off in the towers area. Looks like you will have to do some more research.

My thoughts exactly. Airspace OVER property is an easement, up to the tallest item on that property. So, if you have a 100' tree on your property, you own the airspace up to 100'. I'm not sure what legal rights this gives you regarding "trespassing," but that's my understanding of the easement laws. These are the same laws that keeps the gated community from forbidding ALL air traffic over their sacred community.

Early on in my career, when I was still shooting residential real estate, I would often launch outside a gated community and get great shots via FPV. Range on my bird was roughly a mile, so it was not uncommon for me to fly 1/4 mile or so to the client's house for sale. On the off chance anyone WAS offended, I would be landed and out of there before they could even figure out my launch site.